| Author | Comment | Ex10th
(10/10/00 12:29:44 pm)
| Re: Record of Ananais
Jerry,
I don't really want to beat a dead horse here, but you said that "The Lord didn't speak to Ananais. Ananais received revelation from God in the form of a vision. Receiving a vision is not a sign of a special relationship with the Lord."
OK. But what about Acts 9:17 which clearly states: ..."Brother Saul, the Lord-Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as your were coming here-has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
This verse very clearly states that the Lord Jesus sent Ananais to Saul, who was not an apostle or whatever, just a certain disciple. I don't see how you can throw out this verse.
To me, when we confess Jesus as Lord and are saved, the Lord part implies very explicitly a continued relationship, not just a one-time confession.
I don't want to get stuck on this one issue, just curious for your viewpoint.
Ex10th
| evanpyle
(10/10/00 12:30:18 pm)
| Re: Previous Usage
Anemone, I do see a dilemma in Wierwille's axiom...
Very simply, the assertion that the Bible interprets itself is not supported by scripture anywhere. Nowhere. Nada.
There is much that supports that God interprets His word to receptive people by means of the indwelling Holy Spirit. I'll refrain from rehashing the argument.
Simply stated, based on the Bible alone, Wierwille's assertion is wrong...regardless of his motive, hidden or not.
| L Anemone
(10/10/00 1:01:38 pm)
| Re: Previous Usage
Hi Evan
I can see you didn't read a word I wrote
Anemone
| evanpyle
(10/10/00 6:40:13 pm)
| Re: Previous Usage
Honestly, and respectfully, I did read what you wrote. And I just re-read what you wrote.
The reason I have a problem with the non-biblical concept that the Bible interprets itself is it puts you & I in the position of discerning the Bible's correct interpretation by the application of the proper keys. Once I removed my 'working the Word' (another extra-biblical term) and adopted the (biblically supported) of seeking understanding from Wisdom Himself (that would be Jesus) when reading & meditating on the holy scriptures, the scriptures exploded into life...my life.
No longer does it fit like a glove in a whatever, it becomes the Lord speaking into my life now, confronting my sin and attitudes, encouraging me, giving me revelations on how to live, how to handle 'that' situation.
Not that i didn't have an occasional measure of this experience using Wierwille's method, but it wasn't *because of Wierwille's method...it was *despite his method. For which cause I give glory to God.
| JBarrax
(10/10/00 7:41:17 pm)
| Re: Previous Usage
L Anemone
I will address your "chapter and verse" challenge a little later this evening, but at the moment I'd like to ask you why you keep skipping over II Corinthians 12:1. Yesterday, you posted the following:
(See II Corinthians, Chapter 11) The CONTEXT of chapter 11 tie in with the CONTEXT of Chapter 12.
II Corinthians 12:2:
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God
knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
I was going to let it go, but then you did it again today when you posted this;
Jerry, in regard to II Corinthians 12:8, I tried putting Jesus Christ there, and prayer or no prayer, it still falls out of place because of the contexts which includes II Corinthians, chapter 11.
If you go from chapter 11, you have to deal with 12:1 which, as I posted above, says "I will come to visions (optasia) and revelations of the Lord." That means Paul saw the Lord and received revelation from him. So in verse 8, when Paul says "for this thing I besought the Lord thrice" the word "Lord" should be interpreted accordingly; to say nothing of the reference to Christ in verses 9 and 10.
So once again I assert that you are not following the clear indications of the context. Paul worked for the Lord, received great persecution on the Lord's behalf, (also see Galatians 6:17 where Paul says, "I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus"), saw and received revelation from the Lord, and besought or begged the Lord THRICE to dispel his adversaries. The fact that Paul did this THREE TIMES indicates that he and Jesus were on "talking terms".
That's all I can say about that. It seems pretty clear to me. The problem with this passage is not that it's unclear, but that it contradicts what Dr.
Wierwille taught.
peace
Jerry
| JBarrax
(10/10/00 7:51:15 pm)
| Re: Ananias
Hi Ex10th
I had not considered that verse, I'll take another look at it and respond. Honestly though, the more I look at and think about this subject the further I get from a clear answer. I may have to chalk this one up as another topic about which the Bible says contradictory things and leave it at that. Although I am sure that Jesus appeared to Paul and that John claimed to have fellowship with him, and that ministers have delegated authority in the Church, just about everything else involved is presented ambiguously in the Scriptures.
Peace
Jerry
| Ex10th
(10/10/00 10:10:21 pm)
| Re: Ananias
Thanks, Jerry, for considering my questions. I think the answers are important if we are to understand the truth about our relationships in the body of Christ with those that Jesus himself has chosen and delegated authority, as you have already pointed out.
My own personal opinion (at least, today, anyway) is that each and every believer has the same access to fellowship with Jesus Christ no matter what his or her designated "function" in the body might be. Every ministry, whether a ruling one or not, whether a "gift ministry" or not, must be an extension of the qualities of Jesus our Lord. Therefore, it only makes sense to me that we would look to Jesus for the guidance or direction or know-how or whatever you want to call it, to perform our unique "ministries".
Hebrews 3:1: "Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess."
And again in Hebrews 4:9 says "and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him." Notice the "obey him" part?
If this is not the case, then what?
Also, I am interested in learning more about the functioning of the "gift ministries" and the relationships of these people with others in the body. Of course, it's clear that they serve. No one can argue with that. But I think that there's alot more here that meets the eye, and I agree with you that our teachings and examples in the way were pretty flawed.
Pursuing the truth with you,
Ex10th
BTW good point about those who make Jesus Lord as a day to day committment perhaps ending up with more than they ever expected. My experience has been that he sees us much differently than we see ourselves.
Edited by: Ex10th at: 10/10/00 10:10:21 pm
| JBarrax
(10/10/00 11:10:21 pm)
| Re: Ananias & Friends
Hello L Anemone, Ex10th and all
Well, I am quite perplexed on this one. L Anemone asked me to cite chapter and verse. I find that I can't cite chapter and verse stating that ministers have a relationship with Jesus. Paul did, as I think I've already proven from the scripture. John claimed to have fellowship with Christ, along with the unnamed others to whom he refers in I John 1:3 as "us". Who is "us"? Who knows.
Ex10th noted that Ananias told Paul the Lord had sent him. Can't argue with that. On the one hand, I could point out that when Ananias said the Lord who "appeared" to Paul, the word "appeared" is optasia, which is the verb form of the noun translated vision in Acts 26:19 and II Corinthians 12:1. Which means Ananias' statement confirms what I'd said about the Lord being physically present. But to do that would be to diminish or discount Ananias' own testimony that Jesus had sent him. And that would be arrogant to say the least. So all I can say is, it doesn't seem to fit with the Biblical usage of the word horama. But read in its context, it certainly should be interpreted as Ex10th says. So I suppose I can't say there's much Scriptural evidence that only ministers can see or talk to Jesus Christ.
I do find ample evidence of a few things;
ONE, that ordained ministers have delegated authority in the Church. This goes beyond apostles, by the way, because Paul repeatedly told Timothy, who is never referred to in Scripture as an
apostle, to issues commandments to the Church.
TWO, that Jesus Christ made several personal appearances to Paul and gave him revelation and comfort.
And that's about it. Whether or not the rest of us have access to fellowship with Jesus, I don't know; I can find scriptural evidence
'fer' it (Ephesians 1:22 & 23, Matthew 28:20, Matthew 18:20, & John 14:23) and
'agin' it (II Cor. 5:8, I Peter 1:8, John 16:23). So I don't know what to think-and it's mighty frustrating.
Perhaps the key is to stop thinking of Jesus Christ in way-think; as a man with a body who could only be in one place at a time. Jesus' physical absence need not make him spiritually absent. Then we only have the problem of asserting that Jesus gives revelation to each member of the Church when Ephesians 1:17 and Philippians 3:15 indicate that revelation comes from God. So again, what to think? I don't know. When....IF I find out, I'll share it. If anyone else knows what to do with this hodgepodge of contradicting verses and passages, please let me know.
Grace and Peace
Jerry
| Ex10th
(10/11/00 12:30:17 am)
| Re: God or Jesus
Well, to tell you the truth, Jerry, I personally don't see any contradictions. For example, Phil. 2:8-11 are key verses, I think. They make it clear the God is ultimately the one in charge, who has ordered all things. He is the one who gave Jesus his exalted position as Lord. When Jesus was alive, before he was glorified, he said that his meat was to do the will of Him who sent him, that he always did his Father's will, etc, etc. I'm sure you know all the verses. How much more now that he has been
resurrected and glorified is that true? Would Jesus do any less now to honor his Father than he did before?
God is the one who chose to make Jesus Lord and place him as the head of the body. As far as I can see it, when we honor Jesus in the position that God placed him in to begin with, we honor God as well. By acknowledging Jesus' lordship and headship, we glorify God as well.
(I tried to find the verse that says He who honors me honors the Father.... but I can't seem to locate it.)
I don't think that Jesus would ever act contrary to his Father's will. And yes, we do pray to God and worship Him and all that, just as we've been taught. I guess I'd just like to suggest that perhaps there is another dimension to our prayer, worship, and fellowship that includes Jesus as our Lord, that perhaps wasn't evidenced in the doctrines and teachings and examples in TWI.
There's just way too much in the gospels that Jesus spoke of that has to fit. For example, John 15 about Jesus being the vine, we are the branches, and God is the gardener. What a beautiful illustration! of the relationships.
That's just one tiny example among dozens where Jesus speaks of our relationship to God and to him.
I think you made a very astute comment when you said that maybe our picture of Jesus should change a little from the physically present one we saw in the way. He is now spiritually present as well. And no, I don't understand it all, but I'm quite content with not understanding it all. Gives me something to look forward to.
Trying to clean the lint from my Waybrain too,
Ex10th
Edited by: Ex10th at: 10/11/00 12:30:16 am
| Twosum
(10/11/00 12:36:36 am)
| Re: God or Jesus
Ex10th:
I just wanted to let you know that I agree with these words you wrote in your post.
It is a joy when we agree - don't you agree ?
You said > "God is the one who chose to make Jesus Lord and place him as the head of the body. As far as I can see it, when we honor Jesus in the position that God placed him in to begin with, we honor God as well. By acknowledging Jesus' lordship and headship, we glorify God as well.
I don't think that Jesus would ever act contrary to his Father's will. And yes, we do pray to God and worship Him and all that, just as we've been taught. I guess I'd just like to suggest that perhaps there is another dimension to our prayer, worship, and fellowship that includes Jesus as our Lord,
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| Ex10th
(10/11/00 1:28:03 am)
| Re: God or Jesus
Thanks, Twosum. It is nice to agree on something.
I just wanted to add a little PS to my last post. One of VPW's favorite hymns was "In the Garden".
"I come to the garden alone, while the dew is still on the roses, and the voice I hear, falling on my ear, the Son of God discloses....."
Perhaps there's great truth in that old hymn. Maybe it is Jesus who reveals God's voice, His heart, and his will to us still today. After all, Jesus didn't keep it a secret that was his purpose when he was alive and physically walking around. And to do that, he must communicate with us. If you consider this perspective, many, many bible verses open up, and take on new meaning.
Later,
Ex10th
| Twosum
(10/11/00 1:39:27 am)
| Re: God or Jesus
Ex10th:
Again I agree with what you say here > "Perhaps there's great truth in that old hymn. Maybe it is Jesus who reveals God's voice, His heart, and his will to us still today. After all, Jesus didn't keep it a secret that was his purpose when he was alive and physically walking around. And to do that, he must communicate with us. If you consider this perspective, many, many bible verses open up, and take on new meaning."
We are on a roll
Have a good nights sleep , I'm off to bed myself.
Good night !
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| Mandii
(10/11/00 6:29:47 am)
| Re: God or Jesus
In Corinthians it talks about not viewing Christ after the flesh because he's not in the flesh anymore.
His new body is that of a spiritual body and is not limited in any way shape or form as he was or as we are.
Remember how he just popped into the room where the disciples where hiding for fear??
Or how he changed his appearance so that those on the road to Emmaus didn't recognize him???
Jesus Christ is not in the flesh but in his spiritual body and can do anything that God wants him to do.
You all know the scriptures to which I am referring.
Ex10th, it's in John where he says he that honors me honors the father.
I believe that is where it also says were two or more are gathered in my name, I am there.
Gotta be spiritual to do that.
Mandii | Ex10th
(10/11/00 6:24:32 pm)
| Re: God or Jesus
Thanks, Mandii. You're right the verses I was referring to are in John. I just read John 5, and then John 14-16 in light of our discussion here.
All I can say is WOW! Seems pretty clear to me that Jesus is speaking of future relationships involving God, himself, and us.
More later,
Ex10th
| Mandii
(10/12/00 4:47:29 am)
| Re: God or Jesus
Both.
Ex10th, here's another tidbit scripture that you may like and there are more like it.
1 Corinthians 12:4-6
There are different kinds gifts, but the same SPIRIT. There are different kinds of service, but the same LORD. There are different kinds of
working, but the same GOD works all of them in all men.
| L Anemone
(10/12/00 8:17:34 am)
| Re: Ananias & Friends
Hi Jerry,
You said: "Well, I am quite perplexed on this one. L Anemone asked me to cite chapter and verse. I find that I can't cite chapter and verse stating that ministers have a relationship with Jesus. Paul did, as I think I've already proven from the scripture. John claimed to have fellowship with Christ, along with the unnamed others to whom he refers in I John 1:3 as "us". Who is "us"? Who knows."
Us is the "we" in the previous verse: "For the life was manifested and we [the Apostles] have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us [The Apostles]
Verse 3: That which we [the Apostles] have seen and heard declare [make known] we [the Apostles] that ye also have fellowship with us [we, the Apostles] and truly our [the Apostles] is with the Father, and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ's whole aim was to do what he did (his death and resurrection] to bring us unto the Father. A Father who has a relationship with his own children. All that we have in the Father and the Father in us is through or by way of Christ. Let's not fade God out by magnifying Christ to the point that Christ is "all one sees." It is God. "The Father of all, above all, through all, in all."
What happened concerning Paul, again, was an isolated situation. God allowed Jesus Christ to appear to Paul and to give him revelation, which was God's revelation. Jesus Christ, and which was God's business, was the way in which God would communicate to the Apostle Paul. He is always the source. This is what God saw fit to do concerning the Apostle Paul in light of his background, and in light of his being the first to take the gospel, along with the knowledge of the mystery! It was in light of God, in His foreknowledge knowing what the Apostle Paul would need to carry out his mission for God. We all know what Paul went through and how God decided to minister to Paul via Jesus Christ is perfectly understandable. How God works with ministers and/or anyone of His children in this present time, is His business and His only.
Your whole theory or thinking that Christ, the head of the one body, is appointing the gift ministries has no scriptural support. The Word does say he led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men [Ephesians 4:8]. There is no scripture I can find that says he is now appointing the gift ministries within the Church.
Also, you said that the gift ministries are "just below" him. I'm really not sure what you mean by that statement. How can perfecting the saints, the work of the
ministry and the edifying of church be just below him? Are you talking about function or people who have the gift ministries? If it's people, then where does that place the rest of body...even lower?
Also, there is no mention that the reason the gift ministries were given were for our example and that all we do is just follow the example and walk with God. The purposes for the gift ministries are clearly stated in verse 12 of Ephesians, Chapter 4. They may be examples to us if their walk in Christ bears fruit, but that is not the reason the gift ministries were given. It is for the reasons stipulated in that chapter and verse.
We need to be careful not to magnify Christ above God or to the point that God
gets lost in the picture. Christ is Head of the one body and rightfully so, but God is Head over all. I have read the latest postings from Mandii, Ex10th and Twosum, who are already saying that "perhaps" Christ is the one who communicates to us God's heart and voice. Remember, the one who wrote that song was a
Trinitarian. Jesus Christ is God to them, so it makes no difference one way or the other.
It is through what Christ already accomplished for the born again believer. We already have God's spirit in us and He is not our heavenly Father. He is our Father and we are His children. Would an earthly father send someone else to be his spokesman to communicate to you? How would you feel? I think this whole thing on Christ in regard to where it appears to be going is bit dangerous. Next we will be asking who do we pray or talk to...Jesus Christ or God?
We have our joy and rejoicing in Christ Jesus because he brought man back to God, our Heavenly Father whom we can walk, talk and commune with Him in the same manner as Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son.
God's blessings...Anemone
PS: Jerry, I may be mistaken, but I noticed you are capitalizing "He" when you make mention of Jesus Christ. This can be confusing because we or at least I am use to He meaning God, and "he" meaning Christ. This is NOT to say that this demeans Christ at all...but, it does take out having to figure out whom you are referring too.
| Mandii
(10/12/00 8:32:08 am)
| Re: Ananias & Friends
We claim access to God but not to Christ. We that we are brethren of Christ Jesus, co heirs with Christ, and yet we knock the first heir out of the picture and ignore him as some stand by who does not have the right to fellowship with his church.
We claim to believe that he his the head of his church but we deny that when we deny that the head can and does work directly with his body of believers.
Hey guys, since you all LOVE to use that scripture that as Christ is the head of the church, you're the head of the wife.
How about if we wives treat you the same way you treat the ultimate head??? How about we just say, "Naw, to listen to you is idolatry, therefore I am going straight to God."
If you say that God set you as head for a reason and part of the reason is that you have an active part in the lives of your wives in nourishing, directing leading and growing, THEN I maintain that Jesus Christ as the ultimate head has an even Bigger function as the head of both man and woman. But if you deny him access as the head over you and the body, then you are not doing and practicing what the Word of God says.
Mandii | Twosum
(10/12/00 9:19:14 am)
| Re: Ananias & Friends
Anemone:
Paul was an Apostle according to the "will of God". Not the will of Jesus Christ. He was a "servant" of Jesus Christ. All one has to do to know this , is by reading the first couple of verses of each epistle.
You said, and I might add have lost me within your wording. I would also like to ask you if you could clear up for me, what exactly were you trying to say within this statement
Here is what you said "We need to be careful not to magnify Christ above God or to the point that God
gets lost in the picture. Christ is Head of the one body and rightfully so, but God is Head over all. I have read the latest postings from Mandii, Ex10th and Twosum, who are already saying that "perhaps" Christ is the one who communicates to us God's heart and voice. Remember, the one who wrote that song was a
Trinitarian. Jesus Christ is God to them, so it makes no difference one way or the other.""
Anemone: I agree that God is to get the glory. And we are to love God with all of our heart , soul , mind and strength. But Christ is our mind picture of who and what God is all about. Christ Jesus is the mediator between God and men. I Timothy 2:4 - "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" .
What most people do not understand, because they have not seen it with their spiritual eyes yet. Is that the Church is in two parts. The "building" and the "body". The apostles, prophets, pastors,
Evangelists, Teachers come from the building and are given unto the body - so that Ephesians 4:11 thru 16 is accomplished. <> Matthew 21:42 - it is also recorded the same in Mark and Luke, and also in Acts 4:11 and I Peter 2:7
Lets not forget that Jesus Christ said - that if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Of course we are not to take this literally, because no man has seen God at any time.
II Corinthians 5:19 - "To wit , that God was in Christ , reconciling the world unto himself ---------; and hath committed unto "us" the word of reconciliation"
This shows 'how' God works. We Christians who are "IN Christ" has God given the "word of reconciliation".
But the "building" is where we 'grow' unto a holy temple in the Lord. This is talking about "knowledge" of God. We grow here first, so that we can reconcile the world back to God. That is why the "Apostle" Paul said - "I would not have you ignorant brethren". Those with the gift ministries are the one's who help us grow in spiritual knowledge. We can not reconcile the world unto God is we do not have the correct doctrine. If we are blown about with every wind of doctrine, the the world can not be reconciled back to God through someone who knows not what the will of God is.
Paul was stating to the saints in II Corinthians 5:20 to "be reconciled to God" before you go out and perform the ministry of reconciliation. This is why there is a 'need' for Apostles, Prophets, Pastors,
Evangelists, and Teachers.
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| evanpyle
(10/12/00 10:15:00 am)
| Re: Magnify the Son/ Magnify the Father.
anemone, you appear concerned about possibly over-magnifying Christ to the point of possibly demeaning the Father, or perhaps diverting the worship due Him. I do understand your concern, especially coming from a PFAL theological perspective. But let me assure you, it is quite impossible to give Christ too much glory:
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of
God.
Luke 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
John 11:4 When Jesus heard [that], he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the
Son of God might be glorified thereby.
John 13:31 Therefore, when he was
gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son
of man glorified, and God is glorified
in him.
As you can see, the Father is glorified in the Son. In other words, God gets any glory given to the Son. Therefore, we cannot give too much glory to the Son. It is God's manner of glorifying Himself.
Regarding capitalization, the Son is divine and properly deserves capitalization along with glory, honor and praise.
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice,
Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to
receive power, and riches, and wisdom,
and strength, and honour, and glory,
and blessing.
AMEN
| Sunesis
(10/12/00 10:35:45 am)
| Review
Interesting discussion everyone. I had just had a couple of thoughts while reading through.
I did a word study once on apokalypse and apokolypsis (sorry, I am currently in a "work environment" and do not have my bible here).
What it came down to is that Christ is the "Revealer." It is his job to Reveal God's will to the Church and believers individually. It is revealed to us via holy spirit to our spirit. Have you ever read the Word and something "hit" you? Your eyes were opened, my God, I get it! Out of the blue. Or, as we said in TWI, we got "revelation." That is Christ revealing to you via spirit. He is the Revealer. Very exciting to see that one of Christ's functions is to Reveal God's will to us, his church. He is the Revealer - the apokalypse.
Second, I too do not like this "hierarchy" of gift ministers. I think that's waythink. I know that Ephesians states that it is God's will for each one of us, individually, to know the length, breadth,
height and depth of the Love of Christ (excuse me again for paraphrasing, if I'm wrong correct me). This is God's will for each of us as individual believers. To say, we must follow the leader, well, yes, you do need examples - But -
bottom line - it is still an individual walk. Each of us is equally precious to God - there is no respecter of persons.
To say those with gift ministries are a little higher on the ladder - well, then we've just made God a liar because He is then a
respecter of persons.
To follow the minister is needful, but that can also be a copout - hey, why do I have to really examine my relationship with God and Christ? As long as I'm following the leader, I'm doing great. Sounds like somewhere we've all been before! (TWI). And in following the "man with the
ministry" we have just added another intercessor and negated what Christ did for us. We might as well follow the pope or whatever other "saint" you like. For each of us, individually, there is only one intercessor and that intercessor is Christ.
Paul was an apostle. He was chosen as one (by his own words) born out of due time. Why? Without him the church was on its way to just becoming another Jewish sect - which it would have become. The struggle was between legalism and the law, which James, Peter, etc., who were the leaders of the born again
Jews were trying to put the Gentiles under, and Paul and grace, who needed to have an intimate relation with Christ to be able to communicate to all
Jews, Gentiles, pagans and other sundry individuals, God's grace and to show the Gentiles they need not be under the law. Paul's mission was to keep Christianity alive - not just for it to wither and become a
Jewish sect - which it was well on its way to becoming. Therefore, yes, Christ revealed more to Paul than most Christians need to know. But Paul was on a mission from God to Get the Word out to the whole Gentile world. That is an awesome task.
To negate that Christ is able to communicate with any and all individuals, that the one's with "gift ministries" are somehow a little higher up the ladder - I think this negates what Christ did on the cross for each and every one of us individually.
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