| Author | Comment | Twosum
(10/12/00 11:15:29 am)
| Re: Magnify the Son/ Magnify the Father.
Evan: You said > "As you can see, the Father is glorified in the Son. In other words, God gets any glory given to the Son. Therefore, we cannot give too much glory to the Son. It is God's manner of glorifying Himself""
The problem Evan is that you believe that Jesus Christ is God by way of the trinity !
Can we give too much glory to the Son ?
Lets look at scripture - shall we ?
Lets start with Psalm 113:4&5 - "The Lord is high "above" all nations , and his "glory" -- "above" the heavens"
"Who is like unto the Lord our God, who dwelleth on high"
The answer is - No one !!
Now lets go to John 11:4 - "When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but "for the glory of God", that the Son of God might be glorified thereby"
This verse clearly shows us that the Son is glorified thereby, not "for" the glory of the Son, but "for" the glory of God !
Lets also look at this record in Luke 24:25 & 26 - "Then he said unto them , O fools and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken :
Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory"
This clearly tells us that Christ is not God and he is not the glory of the Lord God Almighty, but that he "enters into his glory".
What Jesus the Christ said next is very important in verse 27 - "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself"
There is not one place in the OT that tells us that the Christ was God, nor does it tell us that God would come literally. But it does tell us that the "messiah" would come. The anointed one of God - the prince. <> Acts 3:15
Acts 5:31 - God exalted with his right hand (the Christ) to be a Prince and a Saviour.
Where did this prince come from ? --- Matthew 2:6 - "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda : for out of thee shall come a Governor , that
shall rule my people Israel"
The least shall be the greatest. Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem. The least among the princes of Juda. The word "governor" is a poor translation. It means - one who goes before, or "overseer" - "leader" or "guide".
Romans 15:7 - "Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God"
Everything Christ does is - "to the glory of God". We are also to receive one another - "to the glory of God" - also !
I Corinthians 10:31 - "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do "all" to the glory of God" --- This is showing us that all gory is to go to God !
Romans 5:1 & 2 - Context = God -- "Therefore being justified by faith , we have peace with God , through our Lord Jesus Christ :
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice (joice again = twice) in
hope (spiritual awareness) of the glory of God"
This is where our "glory" goes - to God ! So - are we to give the glory to the Son, as Evan says ? NOOOOO !!!
Revelation 14:7 - "Saying with a loud voice , Fear God, and "give glory to him" : for the hour of his judgement is come : and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters"
Through Jesus Christ - Romans 16:27
Philippians 4:20 -"Now unto God and our Father be "glory" for ever and every, AMEN" !
Oh the subtleness of the adversary !!!
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| evanpyle
(10/12/00 12:17:06 pm)
| Re: Magnify the Son/ Magnify the Father.
Twosum, you made the assumption:
"The problem Evan is that you believe that Jesus Christ is God by way of the trinity !"
Incorrect assumption.
I do NOT embrace the Trinitarian formula.
However, I would be foolish to deny that Jesus is God when the scriptures attests repeatedly that He is...
Try again
| Twosum
(10/12/00 12:32:58 pm)
| Re: Magnify the Son/ Magnify the Father.
Evan: Sooo , you do not embrace the
Trinitarian formula, but you believe that Jesus is God.
I explained to Jerry one day , that there are three types of people I know who hold to certain beliefs.
#1. Trinitarians - one God with three persons
#2. Those who believe Jesus is God , but not according to a trinity formula. Thus making Jesus not what he
really is !
#3. Those who believe that Jesus the Christ is the only begotten Son of God , and "Not God" ! But who in the revealed Mystery - Christ Jesus , is the image of the invisible God !
I take it then, that you are of #2.
This still does not change what I said in my previous post !!
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| evanpyle
(10/12/00 12:54:10 pm)
| Re: Magnify the Son/ Magnify the Father.
None of the above.
| L Anemone
(10/12/00 1:15:22 pm)
| Re: Ananias & Friends
Oh well, here it comes. Mandii, you seem to jump to conclusions and read what is not there. However, regarding understanding Christ as being the head of the one body, we have only God's Word to go by.
Colossians 1:18-20:
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence [to be first, to hold first place].
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
And having made peace through the blood of his cross...
The following verses and chapters explain what it means that Christ is the head of the Church.
Colossians 2:6:
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him.
Just read the whole chapter.
I had mentioned before, if in a special case, it's God's business what he does for one with a gift ministry...and even with one who does not have a gift ministry. So, I don't put God in a box at all.
You said
"We claim to believe that he his the head of his church but we deny that when we deny that the head can and does work directly with his body of believers."
I am not sure what you mean that Christ works directly with his body of believers. Please give me some examples.
You said:
"Hey guys, since you all LOVE to use that scripture that as Christ is the head of the church, you're the head of the wife.
How about if we wives treat you the same way you treat the ultimate head??? How about we just say, "Naw, to listen to you is idolatry, therefore I am going straight to God."
What??? Mandii, I'm afraid that is a very weak and unfair analogy to use...especially when I did not say that concerning Christ being the head. Please re-read what I posted.
You said:
"If you say that God set you as head for a reason and part of the reason is that you have an active part in the lives of your wives in nourishing, directing leading and growing, THEN I maintain that Jesus Christ as the ultimate head has an even Bigger function as the head of both man and woman. But if you deny him access as the head over you and the body, then you are not doing and practicing what the Word of God says."
Again Mandii, please read Colossians.
I fully recognize Christ as the head, and I honor that truth by walking in what he accomplished for me by his death and resurrection and keep him as both Lord and Savior in my life. You know nothing of my personal life to make such a statement. You do not know my heart concerning my love for my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and how often I think of him and am so thankful to him for what he did for me...it overwhelms me. So, please, read what I wrote, not into it and mistakenly read what's not there.
Oh well...what can I say. My intentions aren't evil at all. All I was saying is let's not get out of bounds with all of this.
I can go on and on, but I'm going to put it in a nutshell. The point I'm making, and because I care, is that we should be careful not to talk to and worship Christ as we would God. Then we may gradually start going over to the
Trinitarian idea. So, please do not misjudge my heart. You work it in your own heart and life. I'm not telling you what to believe...that's your own decision
We only have God's Word as our standard and guidance for truth. If we do or say or teach something that cannot be backed up by God's Word, then we may fall into error and receive and believe a new doctrine. This is all I'm saying. You do what you believe in your own heart with what you have honestly worked in your life regarding God and His Son, Jesus Christ.
Anemone
| Mandii
(10/12/00 5:01:14 pm)
| Re: Ananias & Friends
Well, Anemone, my post was NOT directly aimed at you but anyone who does not think that Jesus has an integral, active part in the lives of Christians. I see that put you on the defensive and that was not my intention but then maybe my words hit closer to home than you are willing to admit.
In one sentence you tell me I am jumping to conclusions and reading what is not there and then in another you ask me to clarify what I am talking about???
So how can you tell I am jumping to conclusions if you totally didn't understand my post which had ONE and only ONE consistent theme??
To anyone who does not believe that Jesus Christ has an active role as being the head of the body of His church.
Active=he talks with you, he directs you, he prays for you, he mediates for you and leads you. Of course, anyone with a half a brain would realize that Jesus Christ would only direct His body in the direction that God wanted. If Jesus did God's will perfectly on earth, why couldn't he directly do it in his ressurrected form. If he could lead his people on earth, why not now.
Just calling him the head of the church indicates, denotes and makes a plain analogy that the Head is the director of all functions. Our bodies operate at the command center of our heads, and that is what is being implied.
Ephesians 4:15-16.....we will in all things grow up into him who is the head that is Christ
active, growing up in Jesus, not by having an absentee silent partner Lord either....
From HIM the whole body joined and held together by every support ligament..
not only does the whole body help each other grow in Christ, we grow under His direction.
I don't know why it is so weird that I used the analogy of husband and wife since the Word of God describes the relationship of marriage to demonstrate the relationship of Christ to His church. The Word of God calls it a mystery. So maybe it's a little deeper than we all thought?
How can a loving but absent silent partner nourish and cherish his body of believers? He can't. And the Word declares that as a man cares for his own body, and as a man loves his wife, so does Christ the church.
Christ can't love, nourish and cherish the church and present the church without spot or blemish if he was not active within his body of believers acting as head and directing them.
We say that we claim Jesus as Lord. What does that mean??? I asked that in TWI and all people could say is that you believed in Him, what He did and in the name the God gave Him.
Yes, I am capitalizing words that refer to Jesus.
Is that all the Word of God says about having Jesus as Lord in your life? Or is that all that TWI wanted you to think that was to it?
Again in Ephesians 5:24 Now as the church submits to Christ....
How does the church submit to Christ if the church is so afraid of commiting idolatry???
How does the church submit to Christ is they are afraid to talk to him?
How can the church submit to Christ they think is a silent partner??
How can the church submit to Christ if all they have been taught is that He did the Word of God perfectly, died, resurrected and sat down and therefore have no contact with Him?
How then can the church call Him Lord?
And if the church can certainly understand women submitting to their husbands, then why is it that the church of TWI gets tongue tied in trying to re-define the Lordship of Jesus Christ and their active submission to Him?
Please read Ephesians. It talks about His Lordship in active terms like crazy.
| L Anemone
(10/12/00 5:35:53 pm)
| Re: Ananias & Friends
Mandii
Active=he talks with you, he directs you, he prays for you, he mediates for you and leads you. Of course, anyone with a half a brain would realize that Jesus Christ would only direct His body in the direction that God wanted. If Jesus did God's will perfectly on earth, why couldn't he directly do it in his
resurrected form. If he could lead his people on earth, why not now.
Mandii...please show me chapter and verse on that one.
Your understanding of Christ being the head is misguided and unscriptural.
Anemone
Mandii...are you by any chance a Trinitarian? Is anyone here a Trinitarian?
| Mandii
(10/12/00 7:05:14 pm)
| Re: Ananias & Friends
I just love running into old ex-way leadership (and wannabe Leadership) on these threads.
I just quoted a whole bunch of scriptures and yet you tell me that my understanding is unscriptural?
Anemone, did you rip the book of Ephesians out of your bible?
And I find it very interesting that instead of answering WHAT exactly it means to you to have Jesus Christ as Lord, you instead throw out an 'accusation' that supposedly would make me, my understanding of God's Word suspect in people's eyes because we all know that anything is better, including being an alleged sexual predator (VP), than being a
Trinitarian.
So are you saying that only Trinitarians understand the Lordship of Jesus Christ? You must think that
Trinitarians are the only ones who freely access Jesus Christ.
Because Anemone, if you can't answer anybody about what having Jesus as Lord is besides believing and quoting Rom 10:9-10 then maybe you really don't know what it is to be part of a church that submits to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
"Hey, I didn't write the book."
So, Anemone, so quick to try to put me on the defensive, how DO you explain the Lordship of Christ in your life???????
Edited by: Mandii
at: 10/12/00 7:05:14 pm
| chastened
(10/12/00 7:43:18 pm)
| Re: Anemone
I believe in God, who is revealed to us as God in the person of the Father, God in the person of the Son, and God in the person of the Holy Spirit. One God in three
persons. A believer of this, yes, that would be me.
chastened
| Ex10th
(10/12/00 10:06:20 pm)
| Re: Trinitarians
For the record, I am not a
Trinitarian. However, I do pray to, worship, thank and fellowship with Jesus Christ my Lord. I'm happy to say that I have a relationship with him as well as with God my Father. And I'm pretty sure that I'm no apostle, or any other high-ranking minister in the church.
And also, for the record, I have no problem with anyone who is a Trinitarian.
I find it really ironic that ex-way people have a hard time with acknowledging Jesus Christ and the unique position that God has given him as Lord. While at the same time, they will exalt the works of a man, who as Mandii stated was not only an alleged serial adulterer, but an alcoholic and one who
plagiarized many men's works. There was no problem with idolizing VPW, but when it comes to acknowledging Jesus Christ the only-begotten son of God, who lived a perfectly sinless life, and became the final sacrifice for sin, better watch out. Don't want to make an idol out of him!
Sheeesh.
Go figure.
Ex10th
PS I'm not trying to disparage anyone who is honestly evaluating and thinking through some of these things. It's just that hind sight is sometimes 20/20.
edited by: Ex10th at: 10/12/00 10:06:20 pm
| Moses848
(10/13/00 7:31:24 am)
| 3 in 1
Yes, I think
Trinitarian is an apt way to describe me as well. . . . .
And how right Mandii is----it is okay to listen to a sexual predator---who drank like a fish, abused, lied, and took our money to build his empire. He is fit to teach us the bible.
Doesn't the bible say something about fruit trees????
But let those who understand the revelation of Jesus Christ come forward and eeeek!!!!
The fingers go in front of the face in the form of a cross (Oh I forgot ex-way generally do not believe in the power of the cross) and they scream "Back, Back!"
Your idol has fallen and the whole basis for how we understood the bible---our
foundation??? PFAL has been weighed and found wanting.
So your question or calling out of the "Trinitarians" on this board, while intriguing, is very telling indeed.
Jesus Christ is Lord of my life. I submit my WILL to His and I try to walk following Him and keeping His
commandments.
He is my Lord and my God.
Oh yeah---let's not forget the Holy Spirit and what it means to deny Him.
That wouldn't be my own little piece of the pie. That would be THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Whom I hope you all meet someday soon.
With a hopeful heart for our mighty deliverance--
Moses
| Ex10th
(10/13/00 1:58:03 pm)
| Re: God, Jesus, and holy spirit
L Anemone
You stated in an earlier post that "We only have God's Word as our standard and guidance for truth."
I have to disagree with that statement. We also have Jesus Christ as our Lord, who stated in John 14:6: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me."
Also, John 16:13 says: "But when he, the spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth."
Besides having the written word of God, we also have a relationship with Jesus Christ our Lord, as well as holy spirit to lead us and guide us.
There are plenty of people who know what the bible says, and have read it, but still have no clue as to who Jesus Christ is and what the truth is. If all we have is the bible, then why did God send Jesus, who was "the word made flesh", and the Comforter and Counselor, the holy spirit? Why did he even bother?
Perhaps it's time for a paradigm shift?
Ex10th
PS Jesus Christ also said: "He who has seen me has seen the Father." So your argument that we can focus too much on Jesus Christ and forget God is not a valid one. The only way we can know who God is, is through his son, Jesus.
Because Jesus is the one who reveals the Father to us, the more we focus on him as the "author and finisher of our faith" the more we grow in knowledge and understanding of who our heavenly father is. It's really pretty simple.
If we ignore the Lordship of Jesus Christ in our lives, can we honestly say that we know God our heavenly father? It is very plainly written that we must know Jesus Christ in order to know God.
Reading about Jesus in the bible does not guarantee that we truly know him and have a relationship with him as our Lord and Saviour. God made that a requirement, not me.
Also, Mandii asked a great question. How do you explain the Lordship of Jesus Christ in your life? What exactly does that mean to you?
Edited by: Ex10th at: 10/13/00 1:58:03 pm
| L Anemone
(10/13/00 5:12:05 pm)
| Re: Ananias & Friends
You said in quotes:
"I just love running into old ex-way leadership (and wannabe Leadership) on these threads."
That's a sarcastic remark to make since you know nothing of me. Quite unfair and immature.
"I just quoted a whole bunch of scriptures and yet you tell me that my understanding is unscriptural?"
I only recall you quoting two..that's not a bunch.
"Anemone, did you rip the book of Ephesians out of your bible?"
Another unfair, sarcastic and immature statement
"And I find it very interesting that instead of answering WHAT exactly it means to you to have Jesus Christ as Lord, you instead throw out an 'accusation' that supposedly would make me, my understanding of God's Word suspect in people's eyes because we all know that anything is better, including being an alleged sexual predator (VP), than being a trinitarian."
Whoa...where is this all coming from?! Why are you on the defense. All I said is that I don't see it in God's Word and if you could please show me chapter and verse from which you have drawn your conclusion. What Dr. VPW did or did not do makes no difference to what the Word of God teaches us.
"So are you saying that only Trinitarians understand the Lordship of Jesus Christ? You must think that
Trinitarians are the only ones who freely access Jesus Christ."
The reason I asked if you or anyone else is a trinitarian is because I do not know who I am talking to...background, beliefs...etc., and this made me wonder where you may be coming from because trinitarians pray and talk to Jesus believing he is God.
"Because Anemone, if you can't answer anybody about what having Jesus as Lord is besides believing and quoting Rom 10:9-10 then maybe you really don't know what it is to be part of a church that submits to the Lordship of Jesus Christ."
This is not only an unfair, immature and sarcastic response, it is down right vicious!! Walking with the love of God, not anger in your heart is one way of Jesus being Lord in our lives. I did not purposely evade answering the question. I was still working on your answer to my question which was first to you and then I replied to your answer.
"Hey, I didn't write the book."
That's my whole point.
So, Anemone, so quick to try to put me on the defensive, how DO you explain the Lordship of Christ in your life???????
You have only yourself to blame to be on the defensive because I was not being offensive. I really wanted to see where and how you concluded your answer to me.
"Active=he talks with you, he directs you, he prays for you, he mediates for you and leads you. Of course, anyone with a half a brain would realize that Jesus Christ would only direct His body in the direction that God wanted. If Jesus did God's will perfectly on earth, why couldn't he directly do it in his ressurrected form. If he could lead his people on earth, why not now."
I still am wanting to know where you get "he talks with you, he directs you, he prays and meditates for you and leads you? I don't see saying that in Ephesian 4:15-16.
"Just calling him the head of the church indicates, denotes and makes a plain analogy that the Head is the director of all functions. Our bodies operate at the command center of our heads, and that is what is being implied."
Is this biblically accurate. Is this how it is being explained in God's Word?
Ephesians 4:15-16.....we will in all things grow up into him who is the head that is Christ
You have left out a very important part of the verse.
Ephesians 4:15 reads:
Speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.
Speaking the truth or maintaining the truth, speaking, holding, living, teaching, being truthfully sincere in love.
May grow up; develop, to mature. The previous verse 14 tells us that we should be no more children, but grow up, mature and develop unto a holy temple.
So, show me where in this verse that Jesus Christ directs and talks, prays, meditates and leads? We do it...we grow up into him. You are putting words in that are not there.
This does not say or mean that Christ goes around and starts directing people or tells Mindy or John this is what I want you to do...oh, by the way I'm praying and meditating for you. Nor does it state that he "talks" to us. What this simply means, is that we are to put on the mind of Christ and to speak the truth in love. We speak and teach and live the truth with the love of God in the renewed mind (putting on the mind of Christ) This is how we grow up in Christ...and the love of God is the main ingredient...the foundation, for w/o it, we will never mature and grow up in Christ, who is the head.
I do not see anything in that verse that even implies the head to mean "authority, chief or commander. We grow up in him...Christ, the head.
active, growing up in Jesus, not by having an absentee silent partner Lord either....
??? What does growing up in Christ have to do with silent partner?? You mean he has to talk to you? Please explain.
We grow up in him..we continually put on the mind of Christ and become more Christ like...mature and grow to his likeness.
From HIM the whole body joined and held together by every support ligament..
From = ek...out from, originator, source. Christ, the head is our source of love, life and power. We draw from him and who we are in him. Again, implies oneness...being knit together, being fitted together, by the love of God in the renewed mind. We are his body and he is the head, source.
not only does the whole body help each other grow in Christ, we grow under His direction.
Where does it say we grow under his direction? We do help each other to grow by loving and serving one another, having our hearts knit together. We do it and are able to do it because we have Christ as our head. Christ is in us. We put on the mind of Christ...each one of us, likeminded on God's Word, walking as one heartbeat, one life, one power, the power of God in Christ in us. Fighting for, not against, one another.
We know that the brain or mind controls the body. However, so far I have not seen that evident in the verses that explain the one body according to the metaphor used by Paul in I Corinthians 12:22-27. If he thought of "head" as the part of the body that had authority over the rest of it, would not that meaning appear in this long passage?
In I Corinthians 12:21:
And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee; nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Paul taught here the unity and mutual dependence of all parts on each other; if one member suffers, all suffer together. If one member is honored, all rejoice together.
I don't see where Paul uses the concept of authority, commander, concerning Christ and his body, church. Paul is teaching here that the unity and mutual dependence of all parts on each other. Again, this implies unity.
There is so much more to share on, but I don't want to hog up the whole thread like I think I may have already. It is interesting to note that in light of what I see as Christ being head, when applied to the husband and wife relationship, it does shed a different light from the way we have been taught.
In answer to your question: What does Jesus Christ being Lord mean to me.
First to walk with great thanksgiving in heart for God's love and grace in allowing His only begotten Son to pay the full penalty for my sins, which is death, and for loving me first. To love Christ with my whole heart and being because he is first my savior who was obedient to God, His Heavenly father and who laid down his life for me and allowed for me to be born again of God's spirit. To humbly follow his example in that he is my Lord, "tupos" in all thing. To honor and respect his shedding his blood as a ransom for me and walk in all that he accomplished for me on the cross and in what he made me to be in him and to walk with the same love of God he walked with. To walk in my sonship rights, which includes the ministry of reconciliation bringing the good news of the gospel and the mystery to others. To be all I can be in Christ in serving the bread of life to others who seek after righteousness. He is not only lord of lords, but kings of kings whom I long, yearn for and deeply desire to see him face to face; to look into his beautiful eyes, hold and embrace him, to thank him for all that he went through and did for me so that I can have eternal life and be with him and in God's light and love for all eternity.
Edited by: L Anemone at: 10/13/00 5:12:05 pm
| L Anemone
(10/13/00 3:06:04 pm)
| Re: Magnify the Son/ Magnify the Father.
Evan,
I did not even touch on glorifying the Son...in light of the context I understand what it is saying.
I'm talking about worshipping and prayer to Jesus Christ as one would God. Jesus Christ IS NOT GOD The conversation appeared to be shifting in that direction with all the talk about Jesus talking to us and us talking to him. Sheesh...how do you know who you are talking to? God or Jesus Christ. I think God set things in its proper order and unless I see otherwise from God's Word, I stand by the Word I do know. I'm just going by what the Word says...any talk outside of God's Word is just heresay and wishful thinking. I think I've poured out enough of my heart on the subject. Make of it what you want.
PS: I never said that we are not to highly esteem him and praise him for what he did for us. So please don't say what I'm NOT SAYING!!!
| L Anemone
(10/13/00 3:25:18 pm)
| Re: Trinitarians
Ex10thI find it really ironic that ex-way people have a hard time with acknowledging Jesus Christ and the unique position that God has given him as Lord.
It all depends on what you mean by position and Lord.
While at the same time, they will exalt the works of a man, who as Mandii stated was not only an alleged serial adulterer, but an alcoholic and one who
plagiarized many men's works. There was no problem with idolizing VPW, but when it comes to acknowledging Jesus Christ the only-begotten son of God, who lived a perfectly sinless life, and became the final sacrifice for sin, better watch out. Don't want to make an idol out of him!
This was a low shot Ex10th and has nothing at all to do what the Word of God tells us and I'm looking in God's Words for the answers. That's right, we don't want to start putting Jesus statues around the house, light candles, bow down and pray and wait for an answer!! Boy you said that right!
Why are you and Mandii so sarcastic?? Is this how God or Jesus Christ would have you to act and be? Is this God's love?
Anemone
| L Anemone
(10/13/00 3:27:38 pm)
| Re: God, Jesus, and holy spirit
This place is absolutely insane!!!
| Mandii
(10/13/00 4:33:53 pm)
| Re: Anemone
You wrote to my response of, "I just love running into old exway leadership (and wannabe leadership) on these threads," as "That's a sarcastic remark to make since you know noting of me. Quite unfair and immature."
1--You're correct about it being sarcastic.
2--Unfair and immature?? Hardly. There's nothing unfair or immature about spotting the typical oppressive behaviors that had us all towing the line in TWI. I won't take it from you or anyone else and I will call it out
every time someone wants to consistently tell people that their arguments are 'unscriptural, weak, misguided, immature, unfair,' just because they don't agree with it.
That is typical waybrain and it is typical leadership behavior to shut down those who oppose you.
I've watch you answer very sincere and honest people who have given you honest answers with one liners, "You didn't read a word I wrote," or "Go back and read my post," or "who are you?" or "what are your qualifications to state that?"
Who are you and what are you asking us who we are when you seem to be behind a pen name. What difference does our qualifications make since you defend a man with a phony PHD? What are your qualifications that we should listen to you??
But you see, you ask us questions to require information of us that you yourself are not willing to give.
Unbalance.
And unbalance reigns supreme in the wayleadership.
And I maintain my right to call it out and say I don't like it. I notice you called it immature and unfair, but I noticed you didn't call it untrue.
And no, I don't pick on old leadership, only those who still want to maintain that lofty status and those wannabes who will try it here.
Anemoen, you said, "I only recall you quoting two, that's not a bunch."
That remark was made when you told me to cite scripture and I told you I did. Then you said that I only quoted two.
Well in my post of yesterday, I quoted three with scripture and referred to 4 more.
If you have read my posts in good faith, you would have seen that and would not have dismissed my post with a simplistic request for more scripture.
I don't have to present you with a thesis or dissertation to prove my point. I quoted what I needed for that particular post. To act like it wasn't there was just a degrading attempt on your part to put down my whole post.
Then you said that my comment was unfair, sarcastic and immature when I asked you if you ripped the book of Ephesians out of your bible.
Well, did you??? All seven scriptures came from Ephesians.
You told me so many times in your post that I am unfair, sarcastic and immature. I suppose repetition aids learning and you would like to paint an ugly picture of me to all who is reading and to make yourself look like the poster boy of fairness, maturity and love speaking words.
Not with posts you did on Oct 12, where you said, "Oh well, here comes Mandii, you seem to jump to conclusions and read what is not there."
Gee, I don't know but that sounds sarcastic to me. If you can't take it, Anemone, don't give it and don't expect to be on any higher ground here than anyone else. You don't have the right to speak to others the way you want and then complain when it comes back to you and then hide behind scriptures talking about love, and maturity and such. What a hyprocrite and ungodly.
Either fight or not. But don't fight and then use the Bible as a shield to hide you from your own consequences.
You said that you only asked about me being a Trinitarian to gather a background and YET you ignore the fact that you asked me that after you posted to me, "Your understanding of Christ being the head is misguided and unscriptural."
Yea, and I'm crazy for assuming that you were leading into a negative connotation on that. Yea, I'm crazy after coming from a cult, a cult that you are from, where we were taught that
Trinitarians were possessed and so on, that you weren't going to assume something negative.
Again, you wanted information on people that you weren't willing to explain further. You didn't say or explain that you understood that only
Trinitarians thought like this, or is this a thought that
Trinitarians can have, or have other groups who don't believe in the trinity believe that Christ deals with the believer but you ask me if I was a
Trinitarian after you told me that in your OPINION I was misguided and unscriptural.
The whole discussion led to and portended to the derogatory mindset that TWI has against the divinity of Christ.
Second, being a Trinitarian has nothing to do with believing that Christ talks and works with the believer. John Lynn was instrumental in helping to point out verses to me indicating the ever present, ever vital relationship that the Lord Jesus Christ has with us and John is most definitely NOT a
Trinitarian or a Divinitarian.
So actually, your question about my beliefs or anyone else's beliefs has no bearing on the conversation since we were debating from the scriptures and not from the divinity mindset.
You took issue with my statement of, "Because Anemone, if you can't answer anybody about what having Jesus as Lord is besides believing and quoting Rom 10:9-10, then maybe you really don't know what it is to be part of a church that submits to the Lordship of Jesus Christ."
You called that statement, again, sigh, oh how redundant, immature, unfair and sarcastic and you added vicious this time.
No, I was not attacking you. You may want to think so or have others think so, but I was not. That statement is truth and I see not why is was so harsh to you.
First of all, we all came from a cult that did not submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and that is fairly obvious and if you need proof of that, please don't ask me for it, go read the lawsuits.
Second, not everyone who loshantaalacasanta was truly born again.
Third, if you REALLY bothered to read my posts, you would have seen that I posted that I had asked myself that question while in TWI and didn't know.
I admitted to not knowing what it was to have Jesus as Lord in my life while in TWI. Of course
I have found out after leaving.
So I didn't ask you something I hadn't already asked myself and was honest enough to post that at one time I didn't know.
And just for the record, every self professing Christian should ask themselves that question and not just once. No one is above it.
And it has nothing to do with anger. It does have everything to do with gut level honesty that is not afraid to self examine.
Call it vicious, call it immature, call it unfair.
I call it a question that is serious about eternal life.
Then you ask where do I get that Jesus talks with you. Anemone, why do you constantly ask me to repeat what has already been stated and discussed on these threads??
I am referring to Jesus speaking to the disciples in Acts.
You asked me where it says he directs the believer. Again you ask me to requote what I had already posted on these thread.
He mediates in Hebrews, but you know since you consistently ask for scriptures that have already been posted, it gets rather
tiresome to have you ask again and the question asking you if you ripped a certain book out of your bible is not all out of context to what you try to do to me.
I quote Ephesians where God makes the loving relationship of a man and a woman to resemble Christ and the church, a relationship where God talks about the man caring for his wife
and her submitting to him the same as the way the church should behave with Christ and you ask me if that is biblically accurate description of Christ having the preemince and authority and dealings with the body of believers.
YES. Can it get any simpler?
And yes the section in Corinthians deals with a specific and distinct problem within the
Corinthian church of people flaunting their gifts over others and people getting boastful and has nothing to do with the Headship of Christ. To use this section of scripture that is focusing on how the body should treat each other to disregard or nullify what is written in Ephesians, in my opinion is not honest research but is just an attempt to fight what is revealed in Ephesians.
Mandii | L Anemone
(10/13/00 4:38:54 pm)
| Re: God, Jesus, and holy spirit
Ex10th,
You stated in an earlier post that "We only have God's Word as our standard and guidance for truth."
I have to disagree with that statement. We also have Jesus Christ as our Lord, who stated in John 14:6: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me."
Yes...I agree...BUT...we know that he is the way, the truth and the life because of God's Word.
Also, John 16:13 says: "But when he, the spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth."
the spirit of truth is God's spirit. It's GOD in Christ in us.
Besides having the written word of God, we also have a relationship with Jesus Christ our Lord, as well as holy spirit to lead us and guide us.
Again, it depends on what you mean by relationship. We fellowship with Christ when we walk in him, this is our relationship with him...we are joint heirs with him. I don't see it in God's Word that he leads and guides us. If he leads and guides us then why talk to God or go to God for anything? Makes no sense. Does God lead us part way and Christ the rest of the way? Does Christ guide and lead us one day and God the next day?? I think this whole thing about the Apostle Paul and his special relationship with Christ has gone overboard. Hey I talk to Jesus because I want to. I want at times to tell him I love him and to thank him, but I don't expect him to pop up in my face or to start talking to me and give me revelation and all that. I'm very well aware of Christ and he is very much in the forefront of my mind and thinking because he is my constant reminder of who I am in him and the fellowship I can now have with God, without fear. I know my righteousness can boldly and confidently go before into God's living room and talk to Him. I know Christ lives within me. It's God in Christ in me...I don't have two different spirits. God's spirit, which is in Christ is in me. I walk in Christ because he is in me, via God's holy spirit. It's through Christ...It's God's power in Christ, which is now in us. So please be nice and don't tell me I don't know who Jesus Christ.
"There are plenty of people who know what the bible says, and have read it, but still have no clue as to who Jesus Christ is and what the truth is. If all we have is the bible, then why did God send Jesus, who was "the word made flesh", and the Comforter and Counselor, the holy spirit? Why did he even bother?"
Because Jesus Christ had to come and to be present on earth to carry out God's redemptive plan for our salvation.
Perhaps it's time for a paradigm shift?
Ex10th
PS Jesus Christ also said: "He who has seen me has seen the Father." So your argument that we can focus too much on Jesus Christ and forget God is not a valid one. The only way we can know who God is, is through his son, Jesus.
Again...take my words and twist them to say what I did not say. Jesus Christ manifested God's love, heart and will to God's people. This is what he meant when he said "he who has seen me has seen the Father...he exemplified God. The only way we can experientially and inwardly and as our Heavenly Father is through his Son.
"Because Jesus is the one who reveals the Father to us, the more we focus on him as the "author and finisher of our faith" the more we grow in knowledge and understanding of who our heavenly father is. It's really pretty simple."
Again, implicating that I disagree to the above statement. I'm ALL FOR FOCUSING IN ON JESUS CHRIST!...never said the contrary.
"If we ignore the Lordship of Jesus Christ in our lives, can we honestly say that we know God our heavenly father? It is very plainly written that we must know Jesus Christ in order to know God."
Who said anything about "IGNORING" the Lordship of Jesus Christ. His being our Lord and savior should live in our hearts. Be in our thinking and applicable in our daily walk with the Father! Please...stop putting words in my mouth.
"Reading about Jesus in the bible does not guarantee that we truly know him and have a relationship with him as our Lord and Saviour. God made that a requirement, not me."
No kiddin!...really?
God, along with His Word and His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, now my Lord and Savior are very much magnified in my heart and life and I'm still learning and growing. I think I need a translator or something. I said, in light of what was being said about talking with Jesus and Jesus verbally talking with us...or praying to him as one would God might be taking it a bit overboard!
"Also, Mandii asked a great question. How do you explain the Lordship?"
I did.
Anemone
| Ex10th
(10/13/00 5:26:26 pm)
| Re: God, Jesus, and holy spirit
L Anemone
You're right. This place is insane. Who would ever think that a Christian who professes to have made Jesus Lord would be arguing that he can not/does not walk and talk/lead and guide Christians.
How very astute of you.
Ex10th
| L Anemone
(10/13/00 5:34:15 pm)
| Re: Review
Hi Sunesis,
When you are able, can you give me the chapter and verse for that scripture you mentioned concerning Christ is the "Revealer?"
Thank you.
Anemone
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