| Author | Comment | JBarrax
(9/24/00 3:07:17 pm)
| PFAL REVIEW: Part 1
Hello 'Dalers, God bless!
This post is a difficult one for me, as I've been a staunch proponent of PFAL. However, I've been reviewing it lately and have found, much to my dismay and astonishment, that there are huge contradictions in its logic and blatant contradictions of the scripture. I'm taking it slowly, so I haven't gotten far, but in just the first few sections of the book (which correspond to session one), VP makes several statements which are not true or factual.
One of the less obvious is his assertion that every record of deliverance in the Bible contains all five "keys" (what's available, how to receive, what to do with it, need and want parallel, God's
ability = God's willingness). (page 25, Chapter Three paragraph 1). Right after he made that statement, he went to Mark chapter three. I suppose I should have asked this question about 18 years ago, but WHERE in that passage of scripture does it say that the man with the withered hand got his need and want parallel? WHERE does that passage say that he realized that God's ability was equal to his willingness?
That's nitpicking, you say? Perhaps. What really irks me is the teaching on unbelief. Do you remember VP's definitions of apistia and apeitheia?
"Apistia refers to those people who have never heard or who have never heard enough to believe; apeitheia refers to those who have heard but refuse to believe what they have heard." (pages 53-54.)
Have any of you done a word study on apistia and apeitheia? I regret that I didn't until last night. Suffice to say, there's no way Dr.
Wierwille could have based those definitions on scripture. I know this may be a little thing to some, but it's a big deal to me. There are only 12 uses of apistia in the New Testament. If he couldn't get something that simple right, how can we revere him as a great researcher and teacher? And how much of the foundation of what many of us still believe is equally shoddy or corrupt?
Jerry
| George Aar
(7/19/00 9:06:50 pm)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
JBarrax,
Welcome to the club!
A lot of us went down this road a long time ago. (It only gets worse with greater scrutiny)
geo.
| rev2
(7/19/00 9:03:12 pm)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
If you search PFAL for truth you will find it ... If you search for error in PFAL you will find it. VPW never claimed PFAL was perfect ... Remember when he said "Not everything that VP Wierwille says is God Breathed"
Some things in PFAL that may seem contradictory if they are looked at
superficially. Quite often when he taught there was a lot of depth of the Word behind simple statements that he didn't have time to go into detail and backup. Sometimes he was wrong. Overall PFAL stands up pretty well because there are a lot of good sources and a lot of research into that class.
Now I know there will be a couple waydale regulars who will jump on this post and tell us the great
benefits of being agnostic and how awful PFAL was ... Well this is a free forum and everybody has a right to their opinion.
rev2
| Orange Cat
(7/19/00 9:12:51 pm)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
Welcome back, Jerry.
Orange Cat
| freeatlast
(7/19/00 9:21:15 pm)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
Hi Jerry.
My scrutinizing of pfal didn't start with the *5 things you need to know*. But it did start with the unbelief, positive and negative believing and fear teachings.
I forced myself to read the Bible in a different format so that I could stop my brain from saying things like "fear means reverence, respect".
Ditto what George says. It does only get worse with greater scrutiny.
| JBarrax
(7/19/00 9:23:01 pm)
| PFAL REVIEW
Hi Rev2.
Have you, by any chance ever studied apistia and apeitheia? I don't want to seem pugilistic, but I was of the exact same opinion as you just a little while ago. But the more closely I look at his statements, the more incredulous I become.
Jerry
| JBarrax
(7/19/00 9:38:32 pm)
| fear
Hi OC, thanks.
Free, I know what you mean about the fear thing. It makes no sense. If fear is negative believing, God can't very well encourage people to let him be their fear and their dread. " Let me be your unbelief". (Isaiah 8:12 & 13) Makes no sense. Likewise if fear is a law, Hagar would have lost her son in the desert (Genesis 21:15-17). If fear always encases, always enslaves, always binds us, Isaac would have at the very least would have been 'encased' enough not to have been "sporting" with Rebekah in public [Genesis 26:7 & 8].
And speaking of contradictions, how about the teaching that fear is caused by ignorance or wrong teaching and is corrected by right teaching? At the end of session one, VP says the only thing that takes the fear out of a person is getting born again of God's spirit and filled with the power of the holy spirit. They can't both be right. If fear is corrected by wrong teaching or instruction, the latter statement isn't true.
I'll come back later and rant some more. gotta do some more studying.
Jerry
| rev2
(7/19/00 9:46:30 pm)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
I did a study that took a few months. I looked up every word, useage and occurance of:
Positive – Trust, Believing, Believe, Confidence, Faith, Bold, Boldly, Brave, Valor, Valiant, Courage, Good Courage, Very Courageous, Fearless, Strong, Encourage, Fully Persuaded, Committed, Entrusted, Persuaded, Assurance, Faithful, Sure.
Negative – Terror, Fear, Timid, Anxiety, Horrors, Panic, Cowardice, Scare, Fright, Quake, Horrible, Worry, Tremble, Distressed, Fled, Faint, Afraid, Heart Melted, Dismayed, Dread, Fearful, Careful, Waver, Unbelieving, Distrust, Unbelief.
apistia and apeitheia are two words for unbelief a is the negative prefix and pistis is the root word. Like athiestic a is the negative prefix and Theos is the root word. The handling of the subject in the PFAL book is too brief and appears to lack depth but I essentially agree with VPW on this topic.
rev2
| evanpyle
(7/19/00 10:03:10 pm)
| Re: fear
Rant on Jerry!
I promise, no smugness or gloating from me...it has been a rather painful yet wonderfully liberating journey.
I by no means brand pfal as 100% error. That's a foolish position. However, I find its basic premeses (plural?)so fatally flawed and so far removed from the real christian message as to place any true statements in a context of such untruth as to render even the truth corrupted.
Wow, that may have been the world's worst sentence!
| booboo31
(7/19/00 10:44:27 pm)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
P.FA.L. was what I believed to be the best vehicle in introducing the greatness of the God breathed word to man at the time.
I was in no means religious, but every man knows when he is lost.
I do not know if there was another "class" out there at the time I took "the class", but I do know this, Ever since I took the p.f.a.l. class, I know that, God is love, that he bought me back via his only begotten son, and I still know that I am a Son of God, *(all inclusive of course)
The closer I got to that "chewy caramel center" that we know as The Way, the more I had to fall back on the BASIC truths I had learned in the "class".
I was so dense when I took the class that I did not know that there were fellowships or an organization behind it.
Maybe that was the greatness of it all, at the time the class coordinator was not promoting THE WAY, He was promoting THE WORD.
I just cannot get into "examining" word for word what was said in the P.F.A.L. class.
All I know is that it taught me to read the word of God and believe that when I did that God would give me wisdom and understanding.
I have posted a few times on the screwed up leadership running the Way. (and sometimes managed to make a complete a$$ of myself, for this I am sorry)
That does not change the word of God or how we got to the place where we know that we know that we know that Gods revealed word is the will of God.
By the way, I left in 87, but what I managed to learn in a 36 hour class has stuck with me like s@#t to an army blanket.
Maybe this (me) dumba$$ actually believed what was taught in that class, and THAT is the reason I left.
| JBarrax
(7/19/00 11:08:08 pm)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
Okay rev. since you agree with Dr.s definition of apistia, you say it means to have unbelief because one hasn't heard enough to believe. Please explain then how this word can be used of
1) Jesus' disciples after the resurrection (Mark 16:14)
2) Israel after having received the "oracles of God" (Romans 3:1-3)
Furthermore, since you've done an exhaustive study of faith, believe etc. you're familiar with VP's assertion that there is no faith in the Old Testament and that Abraham, Moses, and all the B.C. saints walked by their senses. (PFAL chapter 18, p. 281, paragraph 2) Do you agree with this statement? I did for 18 years. Then I read Hebrews chapter 11 with my eyes open.
Evan:
I think I know what you mean. There is truth in PFAL, but it seems to be...distorted towards a certain end. I have an idea what that end is, but as I said, I'm only in the first chapters and don't want to jump to my conclusions.
BooBoo (love that username!) I too thought that way for years. I was confident that "I knew that I knew that I knew" God's word. That's part of the problem. PFAL produced an army of people puffed up with knowledge. The problem is, that knowledge only holds up if you *don't* look at it too closely. I deeply regret the many years I trusted in that knowledge without examining it more critically.
Jerry
| booboo31
(7/19/00 11:57:54 pm)
| Re: fear
evanpyle:
what is the true christian message for us great unwashed?
I must have been sitting thru a different class! Please help me!
| rev2
(7/19/00 11:22:34 pm)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
If you go through Bullinger and Kenyon and others you can find discrepencies in their work or anybody's work for that matter. I don't agree word for word 100% with anybody but myself. But the overall concept of believing and fear as taught in PFAL is basically accurate. I don't agree with all of VPW's examples and wording but instead of running the whole thing into the ground I teach it as accurately as I can.
rev2
| booboo31
(7/19/00 11:38:29 pm)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
JBarrax:
pardooon me, (that's French for excuse me) but I am still dumb as a rock according to the world, the only thing that has puffed me up is beer, chicken wings, and
condescending religious folk! I did not say that "I knew That I knew that I knew GODS WORD.
Only that I knew GODS revealed word was GODS WILL, ghheez remember the part in the class about reading what is written........
| Gem72
(7/20/00 1:14:19 am)
| Re: fear
I have my books boxed up to move tomorrow...including all my bibles, but if it really says in Isaiah "Let me be your fear and your dread" I think a different look at that verse might bless you. If we allow God Almighty to be all those things that we usually want to hold onto....what a freedom..what a joy! If God wanted to be their "fear and Dread" it must be a figure of speech. anthropopatheia. that is truer than the facts. If God is our fear...God is not fear so we dont have to fear....HOW TREMENDOUS AND LOVING!!!!!
A brilliant cut diamond has all facets cut the same with the exception of the top cut. It is a little larger and usually a different shape. It is cut that way to allow light into the diamond. As one views each facet, there are subtle differences in the light and color that one sees.
Often when we take the time to look at a verse we do not understand in a different view...we see the real greatness of what God is saying.
I truly believe that PFAL was the greatest class on the accuracy of God's Word in its time. Perhaps it is our perception of what was presented and perhaps semantics plays a part for each of us culturally. However, I am convinced that if I keep my eyes on the perfect work that Jesus Christ Accomplished, I will move forward in my relationship with God and his people.
Love activates believing and perfect love activates Faith. Keep your eyes on Him who IS perfect love and the RESPONSE has to be faith-filled-ness.
Our perceptions must always be discerned.
| Groucho Marx jr
(7/20/00 1:46:08 am)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
I am far from agnostic...in fact, it's because I am a Christian that I take offense to the content of pfal. I agree with Evan when he describes pfal as "far removed and fatally flawed"...Wierwilles teachings on the "law of believing" are not only ludicrous but also dangerous. His absent Christ doctrine has robbed twi followers of a true understanding of how the body of Christ really functions...on and on and on. Pfal is a collection of plagiarized teachings that are biblically inaccurate and end up elevating wierwille himself rather than Jesus Christ...snow on the gaspumps indeed!
| Orange Cat
(7/20/00 8:26:25 am)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
If you recall the original premise of PFAL - that you would learn how to read and understand the Bible for yourself - hey - that's a great idea.
As it was sold to me it was not to be the end all of biblical study but a launching pad. I'm afraid many of us were lulled into thinking we had it all and have instead ended up in a rut like a car spinning its wheels in the mud.
In fact recalling my exodus from twi I remember thinking that VP had boxed himself into that rut. How much better to read the book and use the tools as Jerry is doing than to praise the rut.
Orange Cat
| rev2
(7/20/00 11:27:47 am)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
That's right the
class is an introduction. It is NOT comprehensive. It does not give us all of the answers.
For instance the illustration where the woman had fear and her only child was run over and killed. People extrapolated that into thinking that all negatives that come to us are because we have fear ... that's not what he said ... He was teaching that an overwhelming fear brings negative consequences. A good social worker with common sense can tell you the same thing.
Sometimes we get hit with stuff just because we live in the world.
rev2
| George Aar
(7/20/00 11:49:13 am)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
It's amazing to me how absolutely convinced I was of the value and veracity of PFAL when I was still a confirmed wayfer, and how utterly pathetic and illogical it became once the scales of Wierwille worship finally fell from my eyes.
In retrospect, I think it seemed so right to me because I had so much of my life invested in it, I couldn't afford for it to be wrong. Oh well.
geo.
| Litwin
(7/20/00 12:45:58 pm)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
Hi Jerry,
I'm sorry I don't have time to read all the posts on this thread at the moment, but I just wanted to say a few things quickly.
First, congrats on taking the plunge into critical thinking beyond the boundaries you've been conditioned to stay within.
Second, I remember VPW saying every record of deliverance in the Bible contains all five "keys" (what's available, how to receive, what to do with it, need and want parallel, God's
abilty = God's willingness).
Then on another occasion I remember him saying that if one of the keys is not obvious, it is *understood* to be there.
Is that f0394xing stupid or what?
Nevertheless (& here is the kicker for me), I still basically believe that these 5 keys are indeed 5 keys to receiving (anything? no that is too stupid!...Matthew 5:45 "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."...These people don't all know what's available - that's just the goodness of our God.) stuff from God.
How many times in TWI did you hear there was NO FREE LUNCH & that was the way GOD made it to be? How about *manna*?
Oh well, gotta go eat lunch.
Later & isn't God good!
Tom
For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds | Outin88
(7/20/00 6:04:07 pm)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
Right on Jerry!
I agree with Evan & Groucho, PFAL isn't 100% wrong, but there are many erronious anf harmful doctrines in it.
For example, Rev2 mentioned fear, that doctrine is very wrong IMHO, it wasn't the fear in the heart of that Mother that killed that little boy it was apparently a car!
We've all feared things and nothing happened. That believing equals receiving doctrine is a bunch of hooey!
Keep searching Jerry, you've only just begun to see some error, unfortunately there much more in PFAL & other
Wierwille doctrines.
George, Freeatlast and OC well said. God bless ya'll.
|
|
