| Author | Comment | Twosum
WayDale Citizen
(9/22/00 1:36:03 pm)
| Re: Hence and hence
Splissken:
I think your missing the point here !
The point is, how do you research the Word to come up with the correct answer to a question or understanding !
My point was not so much who is right or wrong about how many were crucified with Christ, but how you came to the conclusion that you believed what you conclusion came up with.
I contend , that if you use VPW method, you will fail a large percentage of the time, and if you use Jerry's method, you will likewise also fail in your attempt to find truth and understanding.
Knowing whether or not there were 2 or 4 crucified with Christ is insignificant ! But "how" you came up with that conclusion "is significant" ! !
It should not be hit and miss when researching the Word of God, especially when there is a way to know for sure about "certain" things pertaining to certain subject matter.
Is there a trinity or is there no such thing ? Are you going to use the hit and miss method of finding out ? Especially when using our translations that we have today ?
Is water baptism for Christians or not ? Are you going to use the hit and miss method of finding out ?
Should we or should we not do a literal communion service ?
Are you going to use the hit and miss method for finding out ?
Love IN Christ - TWOsum - one the literal the other the spiritual, hidden behind a figure of speech !
| evanpyle
WayDale Citizen
(9/22/00 1:49:38 pm)
| Re: Another assumption
Twosum, you said
"The point is, how do you research the Word to come up with the correct answer to a question or understanding"
My point is, who says we even *research the Word to come up with the correct answer?
| Twosum
WayDale Citizen
(9/22/00 2:08:08 pm)
| Re: Another assumption
Evan:
I still think Acts 17:11 says it best - "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received with all readiness of mind, and "searched" the scriptures daily, whether those things were so"
Also John 5:39 Jesus encourages us to search the scriptures.
But what we have are "not" the scriptures in themselves. They are copies of copies and translations upon translations, where man has added, subtracted and changed "the scriptures" and robbed them of their accuracy !
The fullness of God and the knowledge of God is still within our translations.
The question is - "how" do you search ?
By which method ?
The scriptures of the OT spoke of the coming of the Messiah, and they were not looking for him - why ?
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| Splissken07
WayDale Citizen
(9/22/00 2:50:32 pm)
| Re: Another assumption
Twosum, you said: "The question is - "how" do you search ?
By which method ?"
I open the Bible, pray about guidance if I do have a question, read, and think about it. I think it's very easy to get lost in a world of concordances, lexicons,
Greek inter-linear, etc,. And while these can be useful tools, there have been many Christians who had a wonderful understanding of scripture that never used any of those tools.
You also said: "But what we have are "not" the scriptures in themselves. They are copies of copies and translations upon translations, where man has added, subtracted and changed "the scriptures" and robbed them of their accuracy !"
True, we do not have the actual scriptures. But I do feel that the 'accepted' translations (meaning you can find them in any Christian Bookstore) such as the KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, etc. are going to be pretty solid and reliable. I always had a problem with the Way's attitude towards Bibles. I was once told "none of them are very good". I thought to myself "then why don't you guys just make another version of it that is good?". This is my opinion: I would think that if I had my Word in a book that was going to be how people learned about me and how to have a relationship with me, I would take great care to make sure that the versions reaching the masses would be pretty solid. To say anything like "over the years the adversary has done this or that to confuse people with it" really takes away a lot from God and makes the devil equal with him.
God bless,
Splissken
"call me saint" | evanpyle
WayDale Citizen
(9/22/00 3:06:58 pm)
| Re: Another assumption
I'm with you Spliss...
The defining difference is this...
One is a FAITH-based approach.
One is a FORMULA-based approach.
Since my Christian paradigm is faith-based, I know where I'm going with it.
| Twosum
WayDale Citizen
(9/22/00 3:11:26 pm)
| Re: Another assumption
Splissken:
I think you again are missing my point. God "has" protected "His Word" ! He has protected "His Word" with the "mysteries" that are throughout "His Word". However, we at times think we can go to "His Word" and just read it and come up with truth, especially if one contends that they are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
If this were true, then Paul would never have had to warn us of the adversary of
God, as being a deceiver, would he ?
What are some of the conflicts among Christians ? Doctrine right ? Right doctrine brings about right action . Wrong doctrine brings about wrong action.
The deceiver works through wrong doctrine !
There are false prophets and false teachers, and false brethren mentioned within "His Word". How can your recognize false doctrine from a false teacher ?
Why did Barnabas leave Paul ? <> Read chapter 2 of Galatians.
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| Twosum
WayDale Citizen
(9/22/00 3:14:28 pm)
| Re: Another assumption
Evan:
What is your "faith" based on ?
"Faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the Word of God"
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| Splissken07
WayDale Citizen
(9/22/00 3:36:50 pm)
| Re: Another assumption
Twosum, we know the false prophets and the false teachers by their fruit. I thought it was funny (in a sad way) that the first church I checked out after leaving the TWIG I was at had only been around for 3 years and already had over 300 members. The TWIG I attended for almost 2 years never had more than 10 people, whoever came in that was new took the place of someone who had left. The church I tried out had people that reached out in their community to help people, the TWIG was very isolated and only tended to the things of the people that were there (and didn't do a very good job of it). Maybe I am missing the point you're trying to make. All I'm trying to say is why concentrate on all the petty differences dealing with word usage and
Greek translations when we're all in the same family? Why was it I had only been reading the Bible for a couple of weeks before being born again? It was the simplicity of it, I never even heard of a concordance during that time. The joy and the peace I felt during that time was replaced with confusion and vanity in knowledge after I took PFAL. I just wish people would get back to the simple stuff and quit all these ego trips by showing who knows what. Those with a meek heart will be able to just read and be guided into truth by the Holy Spirit, 1 John tells us that.
God bless,
S.Plissken
"call me saint" | evanpyle
WayDale Citizen
(9/22/00 5:33:49 pm)
| Re: Another assumption
Quite simply, the Word of God...Jesus Himself.
And you?
| Mandii
WayDale Citizen
(9/22/00 7:59:19 pm)
| Re: Another
Realization
False teachers, false brethren, those working for the adversary will always try to step in between the Christian believer and the ONE and ONLY High Priest using arguments like:
"You can't trust the scriptures, trust me instead cause God told me so, you need me."
"You can't read Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew or the original but I can so you need me."
"They ignore outright the power of the Lord Jesus Christ and his ability and willingness to work, direct and led His body of believers."
They ignore the power of the Holy Spirit and reduced him to an it and therefore negate the promise of the Lord Jesus that it would comfort, convict, lead them into all truth. Again, they want to do that for you and again step in between you and the Lord.
They don't mind and will readily tell you that they are a prophet, a teacher or an apostle.
They all, again, want to shake your confidence in the Bible and direct you towards them and their unique, spiritual insight that no one else has.
And so forth but the one thing to beware of and discern is the person who is just trying to share his faith with you and the one who wants to lord over your faith and take control of it and direct it towards himself or herself, whatever the case may be.
Mandii | JBarrax
WayDale Citizen
(9/23/00 12:15:16 pm)
| Re: A new "system"
It's interesting that Twosum criticizes my approach to the scriptures and equates it with VP's. I disagree of course, but he brings up a good point. Just yesterday morning, I was mulling over the need for a new approach to interpreting the Bible.
The first step is to realize TWI's use of the phrase "private interpretation" is backward, based, as we've already discussed, on the twisting of II Peter 1:20. Realizing that this passage does not preclude us from interpreting the Bible, we then have to consider that
Wierwille's "keys to the Word's interpretation" are fundamentally flawed and need to be replaced. With these things in mind, we can begin to work out some simple guidelines for reading and understanding the Bible. I'm mulling over such a system based on the concept that God's Word is to be interpreted by his children. Maybe if we can put together such a set of guidelines, we can use them as we proceed through the rest of the class. It probably won't prevent future arguments over doctrine, but it may give us one less thing to argue about. :-)
The next section, on context, is a difficult one to study because VP used it as a springboard to present his beliefs on death and the afterlife; not a small subject. What makes it worse is he did it without much
scriptural documentation. At this stage, the PFAL book just goes on for pages about death, spiritualism, counterfeits, and the afterlife with only passing references to actual Scripture. He casually mentions that all these things are explained fully in Are the Dead Alive Now. This necessitates analyzing not only PFAL, but ADAN as well: not an easy task. This is probably what Steve
Lortz and friends ran into back in '87.
I don't aspire to do a complete analysis of both books at once, but some of what's in ADAN will have to be brought up. I'm just at the beginning of the process and already there are errors and gross self-contradictions popping up and they're very distressing. Contrary to what some think, I don't enjoy deconstructing PFAL. It's VERY discouraging. I sit and moan aloud sometimes when I see some of the simple truths to which I was blinded for so long.
If that anguished realization of deception comes across as an agenda against VP, I apologize, but it's hard to present these findings dispassionately.
Later this evening, I hope to post some stuff about the "In its Context"/death and resurrection topic. Seeya then.
Peace
Jerry
PS. Did you know that a keystroke error will post a message while you're still typing it? bit of bummer. Good thing there's that EDIT function.
Edited by: JBarrax at: 9/23/00 12:15:16 pm
| Prothimos
WayDale Citizen
(9/23/00 3:32:26 pm)
| new approach to interpreting
Jerry,
You said, "Just yesterday morning, I was mulling over the need for a new approach to interpreting the Bible."
Might I suggest that the "new approach" is in essence the ONLY approach to
interpreting the Bible? Not the slide-rule, mathematical VP spew, but the only way to receive a true interpretation and thereby fulfill the rightly dividing of it. The method I am referring to is, REVELATION.
I believe revelation is the ONLY way that the Bible can be interpreted. As splissken *saint* mentioned, he prays, reads and asks for understanding.
Jms:3:17: But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
I spent years "working the word" but it wasn't until I spent time in the presence of God and sought His wisdom and understanding that He truly began to reveal the Truth, who is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Consider the men on the road to Emmaus...
Lk:24:32: And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
While they talked with Jesus, the Scriptures were opened to them. This looks like fellowship to me.
There were no concordances or word studies there. No "in the context" or "previous
usage" swill. Simply understanding.
Consider Paul...
Gal:1:12: For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
"But by revelation of Jesus Christ." I say that this method holds true even today to those who grow in relationship (fellowship) with Him.
Consider us...
Eph3:3: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4: Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5: Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Consider Prophets in the OT...
1Pt:1:11: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Remember Joseph who said...
Gen:40:8: And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.
Joseph knew that "interpretations belong to God."
Daniel knew the same thing...
Dan:2:22: He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.
Dan:2:28a: But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.
Thank God that there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets and makes known the secret things. He it is that reveals the truth, who is the Lord Jesus Christ.
The interpretation of God's Word belongs to God alone. He makes known the interpretation of His word by revelation. The only "key" to know is that He is God, we are not.
The way approach was to collect keys for this and keys for that. God's approach is for us to receive revelation, wisdom and understanding.
Remember what Jesus told His disciples. Certainly we are not greater than our Lord.
Jn:5:19: Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jn:5:30: I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Likewise, without Christ, we can do nothing.
Jn:15:5: I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
You also said, "I sit and moan aloud sometimes when I see some of the simple truths to which I was blinded for so long."
I can totally and completely relate to this statement.
This is what I am talking about. For me, it was as if scales fell from my eyes when God graciously began to show me things that were right in front of my eyes.
Jerry, I am really enjoying the work and insight you are doing with this thread. Continue to seek God and the insight that only He can provide and He will continue to open up more of His truth to you. Because "there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets."
God Bless you all,
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
| Prothimos
WayDale Citizen
(9/23/00 3:38:37 pm)
| new approach
Jerry,
You said, "Just yesterday morning, I was mulling over the need for a new approach to interpreting the Bible."
Might I suggest that the "new approach" is in essence the ONLY approach to
interpreting the Bible? Not the slide-rule, mathematical VP spew, but the only way to receive a true interpretation and thereby fulfill the rightly dividing of it. The method I am referring to is, REVELATION.
I believe revelation is the ONLY way that the Bible can be interpreted. As splissken *saint* mentioned, he prays, reads and asks for understanding.
Jms:3:17: But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
I spent years "working the word" but it wasn't until I spent time in the presence of God and sought His wisdom and understanding that He truly began to reveal the Truth, who is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Consider the men on the road to Emmaus...
Lk:24:32: And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
While they talked with Jesus, the Scriptures were opened to them. This looks like fellowship to me.
There were no concordances or word studies there. No "in the context" or "previous
usage" swill. Simply understanding.
Consider Paul...
Gal:1:12: For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
"But by revelation of Jesus Christ." I say that this method holds true even today to those who grow in relationship (fellowship) with Him.
Consider us...
Eph3:3: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4: Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5: Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Consider Prophets in the OT...
1Pt:1:11: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Remember Joseph who said...
Gen:40:8: And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.
Joseph knew that "interpretaions belong to God."
Daniel knew the same thing...
Dan:2:22: He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.
Dan:2:28a: But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.
Thank God that there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets and makes known the secret things. He it is that reveals the truth, who is the Lord Jesus Christ.
The interpretation of God's Word belongs to God alone. He makes known the interpretation of His word by revelation. The only "key" to know is that He is God, we are not.
The way approach was to collect keys for this and keys for that. God's approach is for us to receive revelation, wisdom and understanding.
Remember what Jesus told His disciples. Certainly we are not greater than our Lord.
Jn:5:19: Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jn:5:30: I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Likewise, without Christ, we can do nothing.
Jn:15:5: I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
You also said, "I sit and moan aloud sometimes when I see some of the simple truths to which I was blinded for so long."
I can totally and completely relate to this statement.
This is what I am talking about. For me, it was as if scales fell from my eyes when God graciously began to show me things that were right in front of my eyes.
Jerry, I am really enjoying the work and insight you are doing with this thread. Continue to seek God and the insight that only He can provide and He will continue to open up more of His truth to you. Because "there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets."
God Bless you all,
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
| Twosum
WayDale Citizen
(9/23/00 4:14:11 pm)
| Re: A new "system"
Jerry:
With your method, and calculations, you came up with two crucified with Christ.
But, did you take everything into consideration ?
In Mark 15:28 it tells us that he was numbered among the transgressors (plural).
We know that one man felt that their punishment was just while the others did not.
You claimed that one of them changed his mind at some point, but you made no reference, or proof of this happening ! What you did, was add your own interpretation of what happened , so as to come up with your methodology working towards your advantage. But you forgot that this word 'transgressors' was plural.
A transgressor is a lawless one, a person who revolts, rebels. We know that more than one revolted and rebelled, and cast the same in his teeth. A "just" person does not do this ! ! One of the malefactors was a "just" person who understood that their punishment was "just" ! In Mark 15:32 it tells us that - "they that were crucified with him reviled him". "Reviled" - means "revolted" , or mocked him right along with the others that did likewise.
You know this scripture, but it is going to be important to where I take you next. Read I Peter 2:23 - "Who (Jesus Christ) , when he was "reviled", reviled not again ; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously".
Let me ask you Jerry, was there not "TWO" that did not revile ? And, was there not "TWO" that committed himself to him that judgeth righteously ? ? Yes, this verse is talking about Jesus Christ when he was crucified. But the malefactor also did not revile and he also committed himself to him that judgeth righteously ! Are you following me ?
Where I want to take you next , is in Isaiah 59:11 thru 16 , and after reading this Jerry, would you not agree that this record "fits" in context of understanding, directly at that point in time when those who were crucified with Christ and Christ , that these happenings took place ? ?
Look at these words in verse 13, and did not the two thieves "revolt" , conceiving and uttering from the heart words of
falsehood ?
Was not Jesus Christ = truth ? In verse 15 it tells us that truth faileth ; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey. Is not this what the malefactor did by confessing that their punishment was "just" ? ? Was not this malefactor "righteous" by his statement ? ? Now read verse 16 in Isaiah 59.
He was counted among the "transgressors" - PLURAL - more than ONE.
Your theory and methodology fails Jerry ! I speak boldly towards you Jerry, that you may see my boldness in this matter, and that you will consider what I say, as the words of the Lord God Almighty !
There were four crucified with Christ ! Transgressors - plural and two who were "just" - Christ and the malefactor !
The NT is a mirror image of the OT - one of the mysteries of God ! One the literal, the other the spiritual !
I pray that God opens up the eyes of your understanding.
God Bless
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| Steve Lortz
WayDale Citizen
(9/23/00 5:40:49 pm)
| Some words of encouragement for Jerry.
You're right, Jerry. VPW's errors run broad, and they run deep. If you need to take time to read and think for awhile before ploughing ahead, I for one can certainly understand why.
Each one of us has a unique viewpoint and experience of God. Partially because God made us that way (because we have different functions to perform within the body of Christ). Partially because the experiences of each of our lives have come together in a unique way. We may share experiences that are common to man (I Corinthians 10:13), but those experiences are strung together in unique ways, to form unique patterns in each of our lives. That's one reason I agree with many of the posters above, who write that we cannot understand the Scriptures unless the Lord opens the eyes of our understanding to them. But I believe there is a very valid reason for doing the sort of analytical dissection you have undertaken.
Three times within the Word, it states that a matter is established in the mouth of two or three witnesses. I believe that God intended the written Word as one *objective* witness, to keep us from going hog-wild with *subjective* witnesses, either "revelation" from whatever spiritual source, or speculation from the carnal parts of our minds. One of the properties of the written Word which enables us to use it as an objective witness is the fact that it doesn't change. I know that the Cambridge I hold in my hand is a far thing from what people like Tertius (Romans 16:22) penned, but my Cambridge will say the same thing tomorrow that it said yesterday. If you look at my copy of the Bible, you will see the same words printed there that I see (we'll *never* agree 100% on what they mean... see my second paragraph).
That's what it means to take the Bible as a standard of reference for truth. We can take the words that Wierwille taught, and compare them to what's written in the Word. If they don't coincide, then we have to do one of two things: either agree with what VPW taught and ignore the words of the Word, in which case we would be taking Wierwille's teachings as our standard of reference for truth; or recognize that those particular things that VPW taught simply were not true.
All of our lives here at WayDale have been effected by the things VPW taught. Whether we realize it or not, our minds are influenced, to one degree or another, in every decision we make, by the words we heard come out of VPWs mouth, and his words that we read. Some of those words were true, and God used them to benefit me greatly. Some of VPW's words were lies from the pit of hell, and if I'm not aware of them, they hinder me to this very day.
I can't undo the time I spent in TWI. I don't want to forget the good things God did for me while I was there (just as I don't want to forget the good things God did for me while I was aboard the USS Pogy). But I *do* want to identify and flush out the errors VPW pumped into my head and heart. The only way I can do that is by comparing what VPW taught with what the Bible actually says, word by word, and line by line. Thank you, Jerry, for helping me do that! I wasn't able to do it all on my own. Isn't God great!
Love,
Steve
| evanpyle
WayDale Citizen
(9/23/00 6:19:11 pm)
| Re: new approach
Brilliant, Prothimus.
I have, at other times, proposed 'your' (God's) 'method' of interpretation on Waydale...which was met with a fair amount of derision. I am happy to see your contribution since I can be a wild-eyed idealist at times and I take you to be moderate and well-rounded.
When I say I learn The Word (Jesus Christ) at the masters' feet by revelation I don't mean there is a smoking mountain before me with an ominous Charlton Heston voice intoning the meaning of the Bible to me. I mean that when I read the Bible, trusting Him to lead and teach me, He illumines my understanding. Subtle though it is, His working has become unmistakable to me.
| Prothimos
WayDale Citizen
(9/23/00 7:09:00 pm)
| new approach
Evan,
Thanks, and yes I am well-rounded, (nearly 300 lbs) lol.
I know exactly what you mean about no smoking mountains or booming voices, just an unmistakable enlightening that is not of myself.
I really do consider it a balance. Two witnesses as Steve mentioned. First the Spirit and then the Word.
Just like in Genesis...
Gen 1:2b ...And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Do you see that? 1st the Spirit of God moved, Then He said, (word)
We can never forget that the Word of God is part of His creation and without the help of God to know and understand it, we are simply taking stabbs in the dark.
Again, I don't know who said it first, but I really do believe that it is packed with wisdom when they said...
"Christ Centered, Bible Based, Spirit Led"
Endeavoring to be likewise.
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good
ps. Evan enjoy the class coming up, you will all be in my prayers
| JBarrax
WayDale Citizen
(9/23/00 7:27:27 pm)
| Re: 2 crucified
Twosum asked " But, did you take everything into consideration ?"
Yes I did.
"In Mark 15:28 it tells us that he was numbered among the transgressors (plural)."
TWO is plural. Both of the others were called "malefactors" and "thieves". A malefactor is a transgressor. Why do you think they were being crucified? You seem to be saying that the malefactor who repented was being unjustly crucified. This is a direct contradiction of the Scripture.
Luke 23:41
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
The malefactor who repented on the cross was a transgressor. He was being crucified because he was receiving the just consequence of his deeds.
"Read I Peter 2:23 - "Who (Jesus Christ) , when he was "reviled", reviled not again ; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously". "
If you will go back to the context; that is, Matthew, Mark, and Luke; you will see that Jesus was reviled by three groups of people; the crowd gathered, the others crucified, and the priests. There was not just one who reviled him. So there is no logical reason to interpret I Peter 2:23 as being contradictory to the idea of only two malefactors.
"Where I want to take you next , is in Isaiah 59:11 thru 16 , and after reading this Jerry, would you not agree that this record "fits" in context of understanding, directly at that point in time when those who were crucified with Christ and Christ , that these happenings took place ? ?"
No, I would not. There is nothing in Isaiah 59:11-16 that pertains to the crucifixion. You seem to be grasping at straws here. Let's stick with the context shall we?
"Your theory and methodology fails Jerry ! I speak boldly towards you Jerry, that you may see my boldness in this matter, and that you will consider what I say, as the words of the Lord God Almighty !"
Twosum, you speak nonsense to me. Boldness in and of itself is worthless. If you speak reasonably and deal with the context of what we're discussing, I will be happy to consider what you say, boldness or no boldness. I simply cannot follow your reasoning. You're tying together things that have no logical relationship.
We must deal with the Word in its context Twosum. This error of running all over the Bible in an attempt to introduce foreign concepts and change the witness of Scripture is one of the most prevalent errors in PFAL. I daresay those of us who were VP's supporters have learned from his bad example and need to discipline ourselves to interpret the Word according to the context of what we're dealing with.
Peace
Jerry
| Outin88
WayDale Citizen
(9/23/00 7:30:08 pm)
| Re: new approach
All I can say is wow to what Prothimos and Steve Lortz wrote, you guys bless me a lot.
Thanks for sharing and God bless ya'll.
PS. Jerry, I really enjoy your PFAL review, thanks, and BTW thanks to everyone else who is contributing here.
| JBarrax
WayDale Citizen
(9/23/00 8:13:25 pm)
| Re: Revelation and a "new system"
Evan, Prothimos, I agree.
I might reverse the order though. Like Evan and Steve, I start with the Scripture. And, like you all, I once thought I knew the Word. It wasn't until a few years ago that I began to realize when I was reading that there were numerous verses I really didn't understand; lots of questions I just wasn't asking. It was then that I started marking these verses and asking God questions; usually, He lead me to a better understanding of them. So I believe revelation is an indispensable part of reading and understanding Scripture. By the way Steve thanks for the words of encouragement. They're much appreciated.
The "new approach" I spoke of earlier is not a hard intellectual system based on "mathematical exactness and scientific precision", but simply a system of reading for understanding and asking questions. Some of these are simply TWI "keys" in a different order, some are tips offered in a seminar by Rev. John Crouch a former (?) member of TWI research dept. Let's call this a rough draft.
I. Read what's written. Most of the Bible can be rightly interpreted just by reading what's written. In order to get the most meaning out of this, try asking yourself these 3 questions:
What does it really say? (as opposed to what I believe and think it says)
What does it not say?
What is the opposite of what it says?
How should I apply this truth?
What am I doing that's not in accordance with this truth?
If you don't understand it yet, go to step 2.
II. Check the context. I think this is the most important "key" after reading what's written. Much of the errors in PFAL arise from VP ignoring the context of the verses he cited. The context includes the rest of the verse, the passage, chapter, etc.
If you still don't understand it, go to step 3.
III. Check the translation. This is where Biblical usage of words is important and a 'word study' may be helpful (although I think context is more important). Sometimes a word has different usages and looking at all the different ways it's used can shed light on variant translations that may help us understand what is meant. I.e. "hence and hence".
If you still don't understand it, go to step 4.
IV. Look for figures of speech. This is easier than it sounds. Just ask yourself if there's anything unusual about the way it's written? Are there grammatical constructions that don't seem to fit? How might it be more simply stated? Once you've identified exactly what's happening grammatically, you can identify the figure in Bullinger's reference book.
If you still don't understand it, go to step 5.
Orientalisms. This is a little difficult because there aren't "markers' that point out
Orientalisms. A simile or metaphor that doesn't seem to make sense is the best clue, but some
Orientalisms aren't as obvious. But there are reference books that list these.
If you still don't understand it, go to step 6.
ASK SOMEBODY. Seek wise counsel. Take advantage of the collective wisdom of the Body of Christ. Ask your friend, pastor, teacher, spouse, whoever. If no one in your circle of friends and associates understands it, ask someone from a different Church or denomination. They may know something we don't (gasp). Jesus
Christ gave some apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. There must be some way for us to profit from these people's lives. We can learn a lot from faithful ministers, even Baptists. (just kidding).
These steps aren't meant to replace revelation but rather to facilitate it; to get our minds going in God's direction so to speak. I'm sure there are others, and maybe this list has some extraneous stuff in it. What do you all think?
Peace
Jerry
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