| Author | Comment | Outin88
(10/13/00 6:33:13 pm)
| Re: God, Jesus, and holy spirit
I've just been reading these posts and wanted to share from the Bible some things I've learned since leaving TWI. Most importantly that Jesus Christ is Lord, he is not absent as TWI taught and is active with his body, the church.
Have you ever noticed that the phrase "Lord thy God" is not used in the Epistles?
I believe that is because God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ to the glory of God. So when reading Acts and the Epistles depending on context, the word Lord is often
referring to Jesus Christ.
Here a little more info on our active lord, Jesus Christ;
We can and should have fellowship with Jesus Christ;
I Corinthians 1:9 & I John 1:3
Jesus nourishes and cares for the church, his body;
Ephesians 5:29, Philippians 1:19
Jesus directs;
2Thessalonians 3:5
We belong to our Lord Jesus Christ;
Romans 14:7-9
Jesus gives revelation;
2Corinthians 12:1, Galatians 1:12
Jesus gives church ministers authority;
2Corinthians 10:8, 13:10, I Thessalonians 4:2
Jesus Christ works through us;
Romans 15:18, 2Corinthians 13:3, Colossians 1:29
We are his ambassadors;
2Corinthians 5:20
Jesus Christ and God work to clear paths for us;
I Thessalonians 3:11
Jesus opens doors for us;
2Corinthians 2:12
And we are to follow Jesus Christ;
Romans 15:5
These are just a few scriptural references of Jesus activities in the church there are many others.
I believe it is very important to know (Ginosko) our lord Jesus Christ, not just just know about him. God bless
| chastened
(10/13/00 10:01:37 pm)
| Re: God, Jesus, and holy spirit
Jerry, In your search for truth, I am sure you have noticed that when the Person of the Lord Jesus is being discussed, it becomes obvious what the real issue is about. It is always on this one issue that seams start splitting and veins start bulging....the nitty gritty bottom line is established .God bless , keep seeking.
Anemone,
I recently read two books a while back that were very good and were wonderful in showing from scripture the work of Jesus. The titles are "Jesus: Past, Present & Future" by F.F. Bruce and also "Basic Christianity" by John Stott. They are worth the read, and the reread!!
Also, I suggest that you read and consider any posts from DA Reed as he is a highly qualified teacher of the
scriptures. You can find most of them on the trinity forums.
TWI teaching materials do not teach most things in a true light.
chastened
| JBarrax
(10/16/00 12:16:04 am)
| Re: TO WHOM the Word is addressed
Well Hello all and God Bless!
I was considering asking that the relationship with Christ discussion be moved to the sidebar, but I see it has been settled at least for now. I'm still mulling these things over and haven't been able to settle the issue for myself, but I have come across some related concepts that come up later in the class that I think contribute to the confusion; for me anyway. I'll bring those up as we get to them; hopefully soon. In the meantime, on we go with the content of session four.
But first, one more thread related issue; should we move on to Part III or keep going with this one for a while? Is anyone having trouble loading the thread? If so, please let me know.
TO WHOM THE WORD IS ADDRESSED
This concept, as presented in PFAL, is, imo, both accurate and inaccurate. The basic concept that we must distinguish to whom scripture is addressed in order to clarify apparent
contradictions is valid. However, the to whom/for our learning statements are over simplified as is the list of potential addressees. The concept needs to be
developed more completely in order to give us a deeper understanding of the Scriptures. First, let's review what's in Power For Abundant Living. Chapter Fifteen begins on page 207 with this paragraph.
"Most people believe that the entire Bible - from Genesis to Revelation - is written to them. This is not true. Believing that the entire Word of God is written to everyone throughout history has caused confusion and contradictions in rightly dividing the Word. There are some passages in the Word of God that just do not fit with other sections unless we understand to whom the passage is specifically addressed."
So far, so good. I think this is true and accurate, with the possible exception that, here again, VP makes it seem as if few other Christians know this. This may or may not be an accurate observation. I only bring it up because statements like this helped build the sense of superior knowledge that produced so many puffed up PFAL grads.
In the third paragraph, we get VP's attempt to separate what is addressed to us and what is not.
"That part which is addressed to us must be applied by us. All the rest of the Scripture which does not have our name on it, which is not addressed to us, if for our learning."
How many groups of people can different segments of the Word be addressed to? In I Corinthians 10:32 God discloses His system of classification.
I Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
God lists Jew, Gentile, the Church of God - three categories...The entire Bible is addressed to one or another of these three groups."
This is essentially true, but it's oversimplified and therefore can lead to confusion and misunderstanding. Let's start with the "three groups of people". I think this is another example of an assumption VP made based on one verse that doesn't hold up throughout the Word [His erroneous definition of apistia, extrapolated from Romans 10:14 for instance]. If the entire Bible is addressed to Jew, Gentile, or Church of God, and if that which is addressed to us must be applied by us, all of the Bible will have an "application" or some action demanded from one of these groups. This is wrong on two counts; not all of the Bible can be applied by someone, and not all of the application of God's Word falls into one of these three groups.
To whom is Genesis 1:1 addressed? What is the application of that verse? There is none. What of Genesis 2:16 in which God tells Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? There was certainly an application of that verse required but it was not of Jew, Gentile, or Church because Adam was neither. In order to get a fuller and more accurate understanding of this principle, let's revisit II Timothy 3:16.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Since this verse speaks of "All scripture", I think this is a good place to go for an understanding of to whom all scripture is addressed. By the way, the "all without exception/all without(?) distinction principle applies here. The key is the presence or absence of a definite article, as explained in Bullinger's lexicon. The word panta with the article means all in a certain category or all with distinction, such as all the city. Panta
without the article means all without exception or "every", as is the case here. [For a clearer explanation of this truth, please see page 38 of
Bullinger's A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament]
In my first post on this topic, I mentioned that doctrine, reproof, correction, and discipline are all variations of two things; righteousness and sin; what to do and what not to do. Actually that too is an oversimplification because not all scripture is a commandment. The fuller truth is that all scripture tells us what to do or believe or what not to do or believe. Just as VP's definition of
doctrine as "right believing" downplays the concept of obedience, my earlier one overlooked the aspect of doctrine that does not require obedience.
So to paraphrase TWOsum, there is a duality here. All scripture tells us what to do or believe and what not to do or believe. This truth can be seen in the Biblical use of the word "doctrine (didaskalia)"
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching (didasko) for doctrines (didaskalia) the commandments of men.
Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching (didasko) for doctrines (didaskalia) the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Romans 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, (didasko) on teaching (didaskalia);
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning (didaskalia), that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Both the first two uses of "doctrines" have commandments in the context indicating that part of doctrine is "what to do". The Pharisees should have been teaching the commandments of God as doctrine, but they were setting forth the commandments of men instead. All the first three uses of
doctrine are placed with the word didasko meaning to teach. This is the figure paregmenon stressing the fact that doctrine is a body of teaching. What we teach is our doctrine and not all of it is
commandments. Some doctrine is simply truths we need to know; for instance that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. This is the aspect of doctrine that is stressed in Romans 15:4. So doctrine is made up of commandments and truths; what to do and what to believe.
Doctrine is comprised of truth and commandments. Truth does not change, but commandments do. Truth, btw, is revealed progressively through the Bible, beginning with truth about our universe, the second heaven and earth began and ending with truth about how it will end. The commandments are that part of Scripture that we must understand in light of TO WHOM they are addressed. Likewise, with reproof, correction, and discipline. The application of what not to do (reproof), how to be restored to righteousness after sin (correction) and
judgments meted out for unrepented sin (discipline) must all be interpreted in light of to whom they are addressed. The eternal truths that cannot be applied are for our learning.
This sounds like a more verbose restatement of PFAL. One of the problems with the way VP presented this is his assertion that every section of scripture is addressed to one of these three groups. There are sections of the Bible that contain commandments that are not addressed to Jews, Gentiles, or the Church of God.
Genesis 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Here we have the first commandment recorded in the Bible. Was it to be applied by someone? Certainly was. It was to be applied by Adam. One might say that since the commandment wasn't given to Adam in writing, it's not relevant to this discussion. But the fact that it is recorded in Scripture means we have to interpret it and the possibility exists that someone could try to interpret it as being addressed to them. This would be really, really stupid, but, considering the history of man's experience with the Bible it's not unthinkable. So here we have the first recorded commandment of Scripture. To whom was it addressed. Adam and Eve. Was Adam a Jew? No. Nor was he a Gentile, because the distinction between Jews and Gentiles didn't come until generations later when God gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision. So here we have the first group or classification of people to whom the commandments of the Bible can be addressed. The second group or classification is neither Jew, nor Gentile, nor Church of God, but the Patriarchs.
Genesis 6:13, 14, & 22
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
The first commandment that can be categorized as having been addressed to group number three, the Jews, [or at least Hebrews], was Gods commandment to Abraham to circumcise Isaac in Genesis 21:4
The use of the phrase "my people" in Genesis 6:13 and the commanded separation of God's people from
Egypt may be the first recorded commandment of God issued to a Gentile; group number four.
The fifth classification of people in the Bible to whom God's commandments were given is the Levites. This is a subcategory of the Jews, but a distinct one [Numbers 1:47-54]. Commandments given to Levites could not be obeyed by other Jews. If someone other than a Levite or ordained priest tried to carry out such commandments, he would be
committing a grievous sin. The phrase "that there be no wrath upon the children of Israel in Numbers 1:53 indicates that if one of the other tribes of Israel had approached the tabernacle and attempted to perform the commandments given to the Levites, he would have been in dire straits.
This brings us to the Gospels; perhaps the most controversial and challenging portion of Scripture regarding To Whom it is addressed. The Gospels are
obviously addressed to the Church of God right?
Luke 1:1-3
1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luke is addressed to "most excellent Theophilus". Most Bible scholars agree that this is not a specific person.
"Theophilus" means beloved of God and so is used here and in Acts 1:1 to mean the Church. So the sixth classification of people to whom Scripture can be addressed is the Church of God. Many have pointed out in the WayDale forums and other ex-way discussion boards that the since the Gospels were addressed to the First Century Church, they should be applied by us just as much as the Pauline epistles. However, there is a very important distinction to note here. The Gospels were addressed to Theophilus, or the Church; but for what purpose?
Luke 1:4
That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
Although the Gospels were addressed to the Church, they were written for their instruction; for their learning; to confirm that which the people of the Church had been taught about Jesus. They were presented to the Church not as 'what to do', but as 'what to believe'. But the commandments recorded in the Gospels were
addressed not to the Church, but to Israel. Indeed, they were much the same as the commandments Moses had already given to Israel. Jesus did not replace, but rather reinforce the commandments of Moses.
Matthew 5:17
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus came to fulfill the law. While he was in the process of fulfilling the law, he warned against breaking "one of these least commandments." Repeatedly, when asked how to receive eternal life, Jesus told people to keep the commandments of Moses.
Luke 10:25-28
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
And finally, To Whom were Jesus' commandments given? Not to the Church of God, for the Church was not yet founded, but to Israel.
Matthew 10:5 & 6
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
As Paul declares in Romans 15:8, "Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision, for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the Fathers." So the Gospels were written To the Church of God, but the commandments recorded therein were given not to the Church, but to Israel. In other words, Jesus Christ's earthly ministry was to Israel, but the record of it - the truths contained in them are written to us for our learning.
Although Paul's "pastoral" epistles were addressed to Timothy and Titus, and, by logical extension, to leaders and elders in the Church, I don't know of any commandments given to Timothy and Titus that contradict those given to the Church body. Likewise there is a bit of a challenge at the end of the road. To Whom is Revelation addressed? It says it's addressed to "the seven churches of Asia." and some have taken the position that it is addressed to the same ekklesia as the Pauline epistles. Just as the Gospels are understood not by the address on the cover, but by the content of their commandments, I believe Revelation, although addressed to "the seven churches" contains commandments meant not for the Church of God, but for Israel. The frequent references to their works, to "those who say they are Jews and are not, but do lie", and, not the least, Jesus' threat to one wayward Church to "kill her children with death" lead me to believe that Revelation is the complement to the Gospels. As the Gospels record the acceptable year of the Lord, Revelation prophecies of the Day of vengeance of our God. Jesus' exhortations to the seven churches to keep watch and be vigilant echo such warnings given in numerous parables to Israel.
So while the eternal truths of God's Word are for everyone's learning [not just for our
learning, but for that of the Jews and Gentiles as well], the commandments of the Bible are addressed to one of six groups of people; Adam & Eve, the Patriarchs, the Hebrews, the Gentiles, the Levites, and the Church of God.
Finally, for clarity of understanding, we have to note that the word "Gentiles" in the Pauline epistles doesn't always mean uncircumcised unbelievers. Paul used the word "Gentiles" to refer to those members of the Church of God who used to be uncircumcised unbelievers (Romans 15:16 and Ephesians 3:1)
So in conclusion, [finally!] VP's basic teaching about the need to discern to whom scripture is addressed is valid. But this distinction only applies to commandments, not the entire Bible, as he taught. And the groups to whom the commandments were given are not three in number, but at least six; maybe more. But he was right I believe in stating that the Gospels are not to be applied by the Church. I know some will vehemently object on this point, but the law has been fulfilled and therefore we do not inherit eternal life by keeping the commandments of Moses as Jesus told the scribe. We receive eternal life by confessing him as our Lord and believing God raised him from the dead, a work of immense grace and mercy.
My apologies to all for the length of this post. I've been working on this for a few days and found it hard to edit because of the scope of the material.
Peace
Jerry
| L Anemone
(10/16/00 3:55:17 pm)
| Re: TO WHOM the Word is addressed
Sorry, Jerry, but I need to tell you that don't fool me for one moment. Saw it right from the beginning. Whether you realize it or not, you are a contortionist of words...and this
farce of a piece concerning "To Whom The Word is Addressed" speaks loudly to that truth to all those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
This posting represents and exemplifies the way you have handled PFAL Reviews throughout this entire thread.
You are all sincerely in my prayers.
Anemone
Edited by: L Anemone at: 10/16/00 3:55:17 pm
| Ex10th
(10/16/00 3:42:26 pm)
| Re: TO WHOM the Word is addressed
Jerry
Just read your last post and thought it had great insight. I know the time and energy you put into your posts.
I've been wondering about the gospels in particular and my relationship to what is written there. Just the fact that they were written so long after the church epistles makes me think that of course they are applicable to us today. I really liked what you said about what to believe vs. what to obey as commandments.
Thanks, again, for taking the time to share your perspective.
Ex10th
| Steve Lortz
(10/17/00 12:56:15 pm)
| Re: To Whom Addressed
Jerry - Thanks for your post concerning "To Whom Addressed". You brought up some aspects of the subject that I hadn't considered before. I have some comments to add, but it may be a couple of days before I get enough time to post them properly. It seems to me that the chapter under examination covers several distinct topics. Did you intend your post to cover the whole chapter, or to serve as an introduction to examining the chapter? I vote for starting "PFAL REVIEW Part 3".
Love,
Steve
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