| Author | Comment | Rafael Olmeda
(10/4/00 11:19:46 am)
| Re: Fabricated references
Quote from Christians should be
Prosperous
pg. vii
Quote:
This study in the law of prosperity is an educational venture, for all those who desire not only to know the will of God but to do His will, thus gaining for themselves the blessings which His will promises.
pg. 1
Quote:
God has no favorites. Prosperity is dependent upon certain definite laws which everyone may learn and apply. But the law of prosperity must be viewed in a spiritual light.
pg. 2
Quote:
I am fully aware of the truth that ours is an Age of Grace, that we as born again believers are not under law but grace. Yet, would a believer under grace, which is so much bigger than what believers had under the law, do less than believers did under the law? Certainly we would not do less than our tithe, since the "law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus" will not tolerate such a thought if we desire His blessing. Christ fulfilled all the Mosaic law; however he did not terminate the immutable laws, such as believing and prosperity.
So VPW not only called "tithing" a LAW, but said it was a LAW that Christ did not "terminate." If you insist on saying VPW never called it a law, I'm going to be forced to quote pages 3 and 4!
The distinction: VPW believed the law of tithing (giving) was like the law of gravity: We're still under that, too. I do not believe that is the Biblical witness of th[/quote]
Edited by: Rafael Olmeda
at: 10/4/00 11:19:46 am
| L Anemone
(10/4/00 11:35:29 am)
| Fabricated References
Rafael
I think you may need to look up and understand immutable laws.
Anemone
| Twosum
(10/4/00 12:01:36 pm)
| Re: Fabricated references
Jerry:
You said > "Twosom: You have taken I Corinthians 15:22 out of context. Yes it says "...in Adam in all die...". But to use this verse as proof that Enoch wasn't translated that he should not see death as Hebrews plainly states, is error. Read the context of I Cor. 15:22 and you will see that there are EXCEPTIONS to that rule.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, "
Jerry: I took an hour and a half and went shopping to allow God the time to reveal to me on how to answer you. What follows is what God has revealed to my heart >
You said "that there are "EXCEPTIONS to that rule". If there was an exception to that rule , then there would have to be an exception to the rule that "IN Christ all shall be made alive".
In understanding "spiritual things" we need to look through a glass darkly. Meaning a mirror image - which is similar with reversals. I am sure you can rememeber where it says in the Word - "the first last, and the last first". This gives us an indication of mirror images. In looking at the mirror image we then can see the spiritual. In order to have a mirror image of the spiritual, we need a literal to be put in front of the mirror, so that an image appears in the mirror. If you stand in front of a mirror and hold up your right hand, the guy in the mirror which looks like you is holding up his left hand. Thus - the first last, and the last first. The first Adam and all those who die IN the first Adam will be resurrected last. But even though we all are of the first Adam, we all are not a part of the last resurrection. That is because the Last Adam - the second man from God = Christ Jesus = the Revealed Mystery was last, and he was resurrected first. Colossians 1:18 tells us that Jesus Christ is "the firstborn from the dead", but he being the head of the body of Christ is the firstborn of the whole body of Christ, but not only the firstborn of the body of Christ, but also all those who die IN the first Adam. We Christians are a "part of"(partake) of the Last Adam which is spiritual - I Corinthians 15:45 - "quickening spirit". In Verse 47 it tells us plainly that the "first man" of the earth - earthly ( or literal ), the second man ( Last ADAM ) is the Lord from heaven. In verse 48 it tells us once again (twice established) the earthy are earthy ( literal ), and as the heavenly is heavenly ( spiritual ). Verse 49 - "we have been born the image of the earthy(literal) ,we will also bear the image of the heavenly (spiritual). Our bodies will be fashioned liken unto his body. This is our bodies being fashioned unto the spirit body that Jesus Christ has now and will always have. Everywhere in the Word of God, God gives us the literal to look and see the spiritual in a mirror image - looking through a glass darkly.
Corruption does not inherit incorruption - verse 50
So if that is the case, then if we are to be resurrected unto incorruption , then we did not receive it nor did we inherit it. But the promise unto all Christians is that we have received the inheritance, the promise of eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ. WE have the "promised seed" of Christ IN us. In Romans it says that "we" the Christians are called IN Isaac. Isaac was the promised seed that God promised unto Abraham and Sarah. Through Isaac ! Christ Jesus is the Revealed Mystery and we as Christians are "that" promised seed - being called IN Isaac - Genesis 17:19 & Romans 9:7. We Christians are "that" promised "seed" and we are CALLED "Christians" because we have "Christ IN us" - the promised seed > Galatians 3:16.
The seed of Christ IN us can not die, because it is "spirit". It is also called the Spirit of his Son into our hearts. But "spirit" can "sleep" - meaning wait. That is what the word "sleep" means in I Corinthians 15:51. It tells us in this verse that we shall not all sleep - meaning wait. Because only those who are IN Christ, but have died , wait = sleep. The dead in Christ shall rise first - why ? Because they are sleeping , or waiting, while yet we who are alive and remaining are not "sleeping" - waiting" . We are actively alive and worshipping day by day. God is a God of the living , not a God of the dead. Those who are dead IN Christ are "sleeping" - waiting. Which means they are "mortal", which means they "have life". We Christians have inherited eternal life from God who predestined us from before the foundations of the world.
From verse 52 through 58 of Chapter 15 of I Corinthians , it is telling us of "how" - "IN Christ "all" shall be made alive" - NO EXCEPTIONS ! I Corinthians 15:22 is giving us the word "all" - WITHOUT EXCEPTION - pertaining to "both" those IN ADAM , as well as "all" those who will be made alive IN CHRIST.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God - verse 50. If Enoch did not die, he is still flesh and blood when - "God took him" and if that was true, and that was the case, then God's Word would contradict itself !!!
Look at how verses 52 thru 56 are constructed . If you look closely verse 52 starts out with the "first last" . Look at the word "we" in this verse. It should be the word "they" and this is just one of the many translational errors within our translations. The reason I know is because my spiritual eyes understand spiritual things. The first last and the last first. In verse 53 it mentions "mortal", but you will notice that it mentions it last, but it will be raised first . The first resurrection is last and the last resurrection is first. Jesus Christ is the firstborn from the dead and he is the Last Adam = the first last . All others who are IN Christ are a part of the firstborn one to be raised immortal. When Christ died , we died with him, when Christ was raised we were raised with him , and when God seated him on his right hand , we were seated with him. Even in the context and order of the writing of these verses, does God write that which is first shall be last and that which is last shall be first. The same with verse 54 - God has Paul say and write that which is last is talked about first, but will be raised last. Then God has Paul say and write about "mortal" putting on immortality last , but will be raised first.
The sting of sin is death, and all have tasted of the sting of sin, including Enoch , and thus - HE DIED ! He will be raised
incorruptible in that day. The Word of God only says that "God took him", which is a figure of speech. What it means is, he never "saw" death by his own eyes , nor did anyone see him die. Hebrews 11:5 tells us that ! !
Hebrews 11:5 - "By faith Enoch was translated ( meaning moved around) , that he should not see death ; and ( and means more than one thing) was not found, because God had him translated (moved) him : for before his translation (moving), he had this testimony , that he pleased God"
TWO things - #1. he did not see death #2. No one saw him die or dead. The words "he pleased God" are the literal. His actions and his testimony pleased God. WE who are IN Christ did not "do anything" to earn our pleasing of God. It was by grace , and not of our works. Our faith was a gift. while Enoch's faith was accounted unto his actions and testimony. He earned this, we did not earn our faith, because it was a "free gift" !
There are many, many mirror images within the Word of God, and as I told you before the Apostle Paul was our Enoch who pleased God by his walk in "FAITH". The reason I say "our", is because of his "example" of his walk, and how to walk by FAITH.
Jesus Christ did not see corruption , but all those who die IN Adam do see corruption, except Christians, because even though our bodies return to the earth. Our seed of Christ IN us is "mortal", and can not see corruption.
Without "FAITH" it is "impossible" to please God ! > Hebrews 11:6
God is a God of two of everything - one the literal the other the spiritual , hidden behind a figure of speech , in a mirror image - glass darkly ! !
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| Twosum
(10/4/00 12:43:56 pm)
| Re: blindness never reveals
Anemone:
We as Christians have a "right" to spiritual anger ! Not fleshly anger, but spiritual anger !
If you saw anger in my post, it is because I was spiritually angry, and it was intended that you see my spiritual anger !
Teaching of the tithe "is" and "was" under the Law ! There is no way of getting around that ! And what it says in Galatians does apply here !!
You said >"Most of your examples of "profits nothing" needs to be pondered on. A communion service for example is very profitable because it brings to remembrance or gets one to focus on that which Jesus Christ accomplished for us on the cross and what his resurrection brought about...it's not a law. You do it because you want to do it. If anyone makes it a law...well, then it's their problem. So what's that got to do with anything??"
Anem a communion service was done in the "literal" by Jesus Christ, and it was intended to be done only "once" in the literal ! The communion service has nothing whatsoever to do with the law ! It has everything to do with understand spiritual things(matters).
First - we are the bread - I Corinthians 10:17
Second - we have been "made" to "drink" into one Spirit - I Corinthians 12:13.
Thirdly - Paul told that Corinthians that there must be heresies among you - I Corinth. 11:19.
Fourthly - Paul told them that when they come together , this is "not" to eat the Lord's supper - I Corinth. 11:20.
So why were we taught to eat the Lord's supper, when the Word of God tells us "not" too ? ?
What have you not houses to eat and drink in ? - I Corinth. 11:22 - also in this verse - "shall I praise you in this ? I praise you not".
When you eat this bread and this drink in the literal - you only look at the Lord's death until he comes - I Corinth. 11:26. What we are "suppose to do" is look at his resurrection !!! Not at his death !!!
Verse 27 thru 34 is dealt with , with spiritual understanding, and Paul expects us to understand this, as well as God, that these verses are
written in the spiritual, for those who eyes to see and ears to hear - let them see and hear !
I can put together a complete teaching on these verses ,and I have done so in the past and can do so once again for those who want to understand the things of the Spirit.
Anemone you said > "Applying principles from God's Word is not the law nor and does it interfere with our freedom in Christ, if one understands what that fully means. So I don't think Galatians 5:6 applies in this situation...at least not with me because I am very far from putting any one under the law...and mostly myself. So don't make it look that way, Twosum.
Anemone: If you teach the tithe, then you have put yourself under the law - NOT ME ! If you teach the tithe to others and they follow you , then you are responsible for this "persuasion which cometh not of him that calleth you" ! You can not teach the law and the age of grace as a unit. One is one thing and the other is the another ! God does not want any Christians to have anything to do with the law, and the tithe was and is under the law - period !! "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump" ! !
The law is fullfilled in one word, even this , "Thou shalt love they neighbor as theyself"
Was abundant sharing gathered and parted to every man that had need ? ?
In TWI - NO - NO - NO, it was "NOT" ! !
Some of us had an abundance while others had a need. After the abundant sharing was taken. The abundance of those who had to give was no longer their abundance, and they had no more to give. Those who had a need, at the end of this abundant sharing - still had a need and were told to give to receive . Where does it say "that" in the NT ? ?
Where does it say that "giving" EQUALS "receiving" ? ?
I have been a farmer all of my life. Every time I plant corn I "always" get back much more than I gave. Some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred fold.
Like I told you before, I am not defending Jerry. I am defending his "spiritual" rights ! If you can not understand this - how can I help you understand it then ?
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| Twosum
(10/4/00 2:16:20 pm)
| Re: Fabricated References
Anemone: You told Rafael >
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rafael
I think you may need to look up and understand immutable laws.
------------------------------------------------------
Anemone: Giving is "not" an immutable law. It is a "principle".
God gave of his Son and his Son gave of himself , not just for the body, but for all mankind.
God gave his "only begotten" Son , that whosoever should believe on him etc.
By God giving of his "only begotten" Son, this shows God is a giver.
Giving is a "principle" , not an immutable law !
Not all will come to God, in fact some will reject God , even though God gave. It is not an automatic given, that since God gave that all men will come to God through Christ.
You do not give to get ! You give because you love !
God gave to Israel, and God said to Israel "return" unto me a portion of what I have given you. 10% the tithe was that portion, and it was "a part of the law" ! ! Because God "commanded" them to give 10 % - the tithe > Leviticus 27:32 - 34. It was a part of the Law ! !
Do we as Christians do less ? No we should not ! But the tithe is not the standard !! The "heart" is the standard ! And none lacking is the standard that should be a part of the "heart". If you read II Corinthians 8:12 - 16 you might see what I am saying.
Every man according as he purposeth in his "heart" , so let him give" > II Corinthians 9:7 - "not grudgingly , or of necessity". We were taught by Dr. VPW that it was a "necessity" to give no less than the tithe in order to be prosporous. What a lie ! ! !
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
Edited by: Twosum at: 10/4/00 2:16:20 pm
| Rafael Olmeda
(10/4/00 2:10:09 pm)
| Re: Fabricated References
That was uncalled for Anemone.
You said VPW never called it a law. not only did he call it a law, he called it an IMMUTABLE law.
| L Anemone
(10/4/00 3:35:39 pm)
| fabricated references
Rafael
Go read the book again, or let's leave it at that, Rafael
Anemone
| L Anemone
(10/4/00 3:51:04 pm)
| fabricated references
Twosum
Spiritual anger?? Why? What did I say? Or were you really angry because of what I had previously posted in answer to your last posting to me?.
I wasn't teaching the tithe and neither did I say we were under the law to tithe. There's no reason to get fanatical about it like you are so spiritual and I am not.
Do what you believe in your own heart. I understood what he was saying and I certainly was not under any law. If it wasn't from my heart, I never tithed or gave or abs or whatever you want to call giving to help move God's Word. Lighten up and please stop with your so called spiritual anger and read what I really wrote.
Immutable law is a principle and not susceptible to change because it was set up by God. A principle, once applied brings results of some kind. So, stop teaching Rafael something that it's not. Immutable law is believing too. When we believe in God and in His Word, we receive that which we believe. The same principle with giving if it's given right...from the heart and with love.
Say it like it is, Twosum (Don't use someone else to say what you want to say to me...just direct it to me.)
Anemone
| Rafael Olmeda
(10/4/00 4:01:10 pm)
| Re: fabricated references
This should really be moved to sidebar by now. We're off topic (again).
| Ex10th
(10/4/00 4:08:09 pm)
| Re: fabricated references
I agree Raf. Seems the sidebar forum is the place for arguments and bickering.
BTW, thanks for all your enlightening contributions!
If I ever had one iota of doubt that the way indoctrinated and brainwashed people, these threads have washed that doubt away. I'm more
thoroughly convinced than ever!
Thanks to you, too, Jerry for hanging in there. Many, many people NEED this work your doing.
Cheering on the sidelines,
Ex10th
| Steve Lortz
(10/4/00 4:30:36 pm)
| Take heart, Jerry!
Waving the pom-poms and doing the splits (hah!?!) on the sidelines with Ex10th!
Rah, rah, ree,
Kick 'em in the knee!
Rah, rah, ra$$,
Kick 'em in theology!
Love,
Steve
| L Anemone
(10/4/00 4:48:08 pm)
| fabricated references
Larry...I have only one thing to say to you and your obvious hatred and adamacy against VPW and obviously against me because I don't agree with you...HOGWASH!
And why do you disagree with Jerry a majority of the times??? Are you saying you agree with VPW a majority of the time? Or do you have another doctrine all together??
I think your response to me is ludicrous and shows anger and immaturity. You took what I said concerning what VPW taught personally and then you struck out at me because I backed up VPW and that's all there is to it.
If you can't be decent, then don't bother me.
Anemone
| Twosum
(10/4/00 4:48:38 pm)
| Re: fabricated references
Anemone: I am not angry with you !
I am spiritually angry with the adversary.
I am speaking to you, but my spiritual anger is directed toward the adversary of God, not you !
You might have understood what he was saying, and I did likewise, because I gave also from my heart. But , there were times that I was not sure if it was my heart or obligation to give. Looking back now, I know that my heart was not the major part of my reason for giving. It was more my obligation to give no less than 10% - the tithe.
Now that I am not ignorant anymore, and fully understand the spiritual reasoning behind God's words , I no longer am obligated to give no less than 10% - which puts one in bondage once again with the Law.
There were many times I gave out of what I had not , and ran bills up , just to pay my obligation. My heart at that time thought that what I was doing was correct. But the fact remains, that the tithe "was" a part of the Law !
I want to assure you , that I use no one to talk through. I directed my conversations directly toward you with the intent that I was talking to you ! I did not use Rafael whatsoever. I have no idea why you think this .
"Immutable" means that which can not be changed. If the tithe is unchangeable , then you do it. NOT ME ! Because giving is "changeable" according as one purposes in one's heart.
What does not change -- is --- God ! God changes not !
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| Ex10th
(10/4/00 5:05:16 pm)
| Re: My 2 cents
In going back and reviewing some of the posts on this thread and the other related ones.......
Many contributors here have done an admirable job of proving that PFAL and all its offshoots are simply a collection of VP Wierwille's opinions and personal assumptions about the Bible, what it says, and how to apply it.
Since he was of questionable moral character, (which has been proved on Waydale by many eyewitnesses' testimonies) anything he "taught" is at the very least, questionable.
Thanks all, for daring to "question".
| L Anemone
(10/4/00 5:23:12 pm)
| fabricated references
Twosum,
Thanks for your letter, Twosum.
I never said nor did VPW say that "tithing" was an immutable law in the sense you and perhaps others are reading it. It was the spiritual principle he was getting at. Giving a portion to God was called "tithing"...it's just a name given. I never thought that God would want one to give if it were not from the heart because there would be no
believing behind it and it would hinder God's true purposes, which was only to bless His people. This was VPW's heart too if you would read the very last paragraph of the book, Christians Should Be Prosperous. I never felt obligated and I truly enjoyed giving because I was giving to back God only a small part of what He gave to me and He would give back so much more.
We may not agree on what or why he taught what he did. The main thing is that we understand God's heart on the matter and what giving is really all about.
I responded, not to make a big issue out of it, but it was because of the viciousness that's thrown at him because people disagree and take so much of what he taught out of context because of it. Also, if I agree, I get the same vicious greeting.
Is this what some of the threads here are about? Demeaning VPW and his teachings? Venting anger at anyone who happens to agree with most of his teachings? If so, I don't belong here.
Anemone
| Twosum
(10/4/00 6:00:13 pm)
| Re: fabricated references
Anemone:
You mentioned Dr VPW heart, but you nor I knew or know what was in his heart. I will not speculate either. Others might, but I won't. I continue to remain in the spiritual battle
(competition) instead of of wrestling with flesh and blood.
You seem to be saying that you knew Dr VPW heart, or at least you are assuming you do.
I know he mentioned the spiritual, but the tithe was not the spiritual, but it was included as being a part of the spiritual.
We know that the Apostle Peter taught that the Gentiles should be circumcised as do the Jews. He was wrong, and the Apostle Paul told him he was to blame. That is because of his responsibility to God. God told Peter that what he had called clean , callest not thou unclean. The Gentiles were made clean "also" by way of God , who chose certain Gentiles to become part of the body of Christ. It was God's business and not Peter's business as to whom God calls and chooses. Paul taught us in the book of Galatians about circumcision. But he taught us so much "more" than that.
We Christians fullfill the law by the law of righteousness. The book of Romans tells us that the law could not make one righteous. One could give the tithe, and he was "not" fullfilling the law of righteousness. The law of righteousness is not based upon the law of Moses, of which the tithe was a part, as I have shown. In order to fullfill the law of righteousness - we are to "love". Giving of a certain portion is "not love".
Dr. VPW taught the law of prosperity and the tithe and the teaching of the tithe was the "major factor". That one would not give less than !
Dr. VPW taught it, but it was influenced by the adversary of God.
From this "one" wrong teaching, came many false understandings that did not, and do not line up with spirituality that Paul teaches us by way of the seven church epistles.
"WE" are the bread, and we are to "care" for one another.
Our abundant sharing was "not" for the purpose of moving the Word over the world ! That is "not" the purpose for our giving of our abundance in the age of grace !
Our giving of our abundance is based upon loving thy neighbor as thyself !
II Corinthians 8:14 - "But by an equality , that "now" --"at this time" -- your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their
abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality"
Verse 15 - "As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing left over ; and he that had gathered little had no lack"
Verse 16 - Was not done in The Way Ministry !!
No matter what the heart of Dr. VPW - this part of spirituality was not being done !
Those that lacked , lacked even more.
I have seen others run their credit cards up because of their "obligation" towards "prosperity". Guess what ? IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY !!
The way it works is this way - God gives - we return - God gives - we return - God gives - we return.
But where does God want us to return it too (purpose) ?
Answer - "To those who have need" !!
"NOT" for moving the Word over the World ! !
I "AM" spiritually angry that this error crept into the Church ! !
And guess what ? It still is being taught to the Church by many organizations ! Some of them are offshoots to the Way Ministry as well. They still have not learned the spiritual understanding behind giving !
Anemone: May I make a suggestion ? Your looking at the "heart" of Dr. VPW. Is it not time to look at the "heart" of God, and look for the "heart" of God within his Word ? Remember - "God's will be done" !
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
Edited by: Twosum at: 10/4/00 6:00:13 pm
| Rafael Olmeda
(10/4/00 6:28:14 pm)
| Re: fabricated references
GENTLEPERSONS:
Please move to the sidebar. The tithe was a teensy itty bitty nothing part of PFAL, so this discussion belongs in the sidebar. Please, please, please. I'm pouring my heart out, here.
| Steve Lortz
(10/4/00 10:23:28 pm)
| To Whom It May Concern
Wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall if Twosum and L Anemone were married!?!
On second thought... maybe not...
Love,
Steve
If they're going to take us this far off the thread topic, we might as well have some fun with it! Hopefully, we'll be back on topic soon.
| L Anemone
(10/5/00 12:21:33 am)
| fabricated references
Twosum
Giving equals receiving is a principle. It doesn't literally say "giving = receiving." But nevertheless, it's still a principle according to God's Word. There are scriptures that show this principle.
I wish you would stop talking to me like I'm some kind of starry eye idiot. The heart of God is exactly what I'm talking about and I know exactly what I am saying.
I really would like to stop this conversation from this point on because it seems to be an endless cycle. You're not going to change your mind on the subject and neither am I unless God really shows me otherwise. Believe what you want.
For those of you who say we should go to the side bar...I don't see you adding anything
anything interesting to this thread. But, I agree we should stay on the thread topic.
Anemone
| Rafael Olmeda
(10/5/00 8:31:01 am)
| Re: fabricated references
Since I'm the one asking to go to sidebar, I'll respond to that last, once again uncalled for, comment.
I haven't added to this thread: you are correct. But I've read it, regularly. I'm not so obsessive that I have to comment on every little thing I agree with or that I disagree with.
I ask to move this to sidebar because this thread has not been a PFAL Review thread for many posts now. Waydale's rules ask us to stay on topic. Let's do so with maturity.
|
|
