Author | Comment | Moses848 (9/23/00 8:55:13 pm)
| Jerry Hey Jerry . . . . following along and praying for you as well. . . . .
Here is a little step that has helped me. . . .
Be willing to accept and unafraid to actually believe what it says.
Similar to your first step, but in truth there have been times I have seen things that frightened me because I knew I had been adamantly proclaiming just the opposite. Silly though it may sound it is a really big deal for we ex-wayfers.
As Evan has pointed out several times---we know through---by way of---Jesus Christ.
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Carry on
Peace,
Moses
| Twosum (9/24/00 8:34:12 am)
| Re: 2 crucified Hi Jerry:
You said > "TWO is plural. Both of the others were called "malefactors" and "thieves". A malefactor is a transgressor. Why do you think they were being crucified? You seem to be saying that the malefactor who repented was being unjustly crucified. This is a direct contradiction of the Scripture."
Stop just a minute, I just gave you an example of the more than one definition of the word "transgressor", and you are using the wrong definition here !
A transgressor is one who is lawless, and yes these thieves and malefactors were lawless , in the sense that they broke the law.
But, a transgressor , and remember we are dealing with a translation, are those who "revile". And one of the malefactors "did not revile" ! Instead , he rebuked the other malefactor !
There is no mention in "any" of the records that he reviled, and then changed his mind. But you are "assuming" that this is what happened ! Is "assuming" a part of your biblical research ? Do you read a book on how to "assume" ? Is that the book that you read right after orientalisms ? :-)
You mentioned that we should stay in the four gospels to figure out how many were crucified with Christ. Yet, the Word of God tells us time and time again to go back to the OT. > Romans 15:4 and Romans 1:20 and here is a great one - Jesus Christ told his disciples that the son of man shall be in the earth for three days and three night "as" Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights. Also Jesus Christ told them how he, the son of man, would be raised - as Moses raised up the serpent, so shall the son of man be lifted up. So please do not tell us to stay in the four gospels for our answers, as to how many were crucified with Christ. The Word of God does not tell us to do such a thing ,"for our learning".
Why I gave you this record in Isaiah 59 was to explain to you that it is a mirror image of the events that took place during the time of the crucifiction of Christ and those others who were crucified with him. And to show you that those who "revolted" ( transgressors ), conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood" . This what was written "aforetime" is for our learning that those who did this > the two thieves and one of the malefactors were speaking words of falsehood, and only one of the malefactors spoke "truth" and he spoke the truth "justly".
Jesus Christ spoke the truth justly , and this malefactor spoke the truth justly, and "he did not revile !
Four crucified with Christ = 5 in all --- Three reviled and two did not ! = Another one of the "mysteries" = the most three , the least two !
Jesus Christ did not revile back , and the malefactor did not revile at all, instead he "rebuked" that malefactor who did revile !!
Love IN Christ -- TWOsum
| evanpyle (9/24/00 8:47:20 am)
| Re: :dialog vs. diatribe Twosum...ad hominum attacks feebly balanced by a smiley face do not further dialog. I refer to:
"But you are "assuming" that this is what happened ! Is "assuming" a part of your biblical research ? Do you read a book on how to "assume" ? Is that the book that you read right after orientalisms ?"
That's ugly twosum. Read it again. I think it's indefensible. It sure as hell isn't funny. Go away.
You note in passing: "and remember we are dealing with a translation"
So whose textual work are we going to heed? Yours? Sorry, you've proven yourself unfit, the above being yet another example why.
| Twosum (9/24/00 8:50:35 am)
| Re: 2 crucified Jerry your said > "If you will go back to the context; that is, Matthew, Mark, and Luke; you will see that Jesus was reviled by three groups of people; the crowd gathered, the others crucified, and the priests. There was not just one who reviled him. So there is no logical reason to interpret I Peter 2:23 as being contradictory to the idea of only two malefactors."
Jerry: OK then , lets go back to those records and see how many "groups of people" reviled him.
#1. they that passed by - Mark 15:29
#2.& #3. Likewise the chief priests and the scribes - Mark 15:31
#4. The thieves ( plural ) Matthew 27:44
I tried to explain to you as to why I used I Peter 2:23 , but apparently you were not listening. I only used this record because of the use of the word "revile", and that Jesus Christ did not "revile" back.
It has also been shown to you that one of the malefactors did not revile either, instead he "rebuked" the other malefactor !
Jerry, you said > "We must deal with the Word in its context Twosum. This error of running all over the Bible in an attempt to introduce foreign concepts and change the witness of Scripture is one of the most prevalent errors in PFAL. I daresay those of us who were VP's supporters have learned from his bad example"
Jerry, I explained to you in a post prior to this one , that going back to the OT is the "right" thing to do - "for our learning" ! Jesus Christ did it, why won't you ? ?
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| Twosum (9/24/00 10:17:22 am)
| Re: :dialog vs. diatribe Evan - you said and quoted in your post > " "But you are "assuming" that this is what happened ! Is "assuming" a part of your biblical research ? Do you read a book on how to "assume" ? Is that the book that you read right after orientalisms ? " <TWOsum said)
EVAN said > "That's ugly twosum. Read it again. I think it's indefensible. It sure as hell isn't funny. Go away.
You note in passing: "and remember we are dealing with a translation"
So whose textual work are we going to heed? Yours? Sorry, you've proven yourself unfit, the above being yet another example why. "
Evan: Let me remind you of what it says in Proverbs 12:1 - "Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge : but he that hateh reproof is brutish"
Have a good day sir !
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| Prothimos (9/24/00 12:11:51 pm)
| new method Jerry,
Interesting list. I think I would personally skip from #1 (with the context of Jesus Christ in mind) to #5. (With lots of prayer in between) The reason being that looking at
Orientalisms, figures of speech and translations gave me an understanding of
Orientalisms, figures of speech and Greek or Hebrew, Not necessarily a greater understanding of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Can they be tools to help our understanding of the written word? Most definitely. Should they be tools that replace our understanding of the living word, Jesus Christ? Most definitely not. Is that what I think you are proposing? No. Is that what I think happened with the keys or principles of pfal? Yes.
It seems the message in pfal was, "if you just use these keys, then you can figure it all out." As we have all learned, this simply isn't true. A case in point is the book of Daniel...
Dan:12:4: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Dan:12:9: And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
No amount of principles or keys to use or follow can unlock what God has sealed. Period. Until God (by His own perogative) reveals it.
Moses made an excellent point about our being willing to accept and be unafraid of actually believing what it (the Word) says. He went on to say that asking someone else often gave him understanding. To this I heartily concur.
Asking others is not only the wise and meek thing to do, many times God will confirm His truth through others. (even
Baptists as you said) This also emphasizes the fact that no single person or group has the market cornered on the truth, as much as they would like to think so. There is no way that God can be put in a box. His ways are above our ways.
Anyway, I think it's truth that we are after. It's the hearts great longing and desire. Jesus Christ is the Truth. I think we are to grow in our understanding and relationship with/of Him.
I think Paul said it best...
Phil:3:8: Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Finally, whatever *method* is used to get "the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord." The main point is that we get it. In comparison to actually knowing Him, everything else really does pale.
Evan, amen to the twosum comment.
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good
| Ex10th (9/24/00 1:13:05 pm)
| Re: new method Twosum
Sorry for butting in here, but the dialogue is obviously moving on to other topics. No one wants to argue with you whether it was 2 or 4 crucified.
I am respectfully asking you to allow the discussion to move forward.
Thank you,
Ex10th
| evanpyle (9/24/00 5:27:29 pm)
| Re: new method Prothimus, thank you for your excellent post. If I may expand on the topic, I'll quote a portion of a sermon I wrote on the very subject.
I apologize in advance for the length of this post...but I hope it helps further the discussion on proposed 'keys' to interpretation).
The real problem is not our education, or our lack thereof. It is not our lack of scholarship, knowledge of ancient languages or the “difficulty” of the Bible. What, then, is our problem?
Since the Fall in Genesis 3, man has moved out of reach of God’s voice. He is powerless to penetrate the spiritual realm.
'But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.' I Cor. 2:14
The problem in understanding the scriptures is not that they are difficult to grasp. No, the scriptures are impossible to grasp! The real problem is our own sin-darkened heart. The gap is so great that even those closest to Jesus didn’t understand Him.
And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. Luke 2:50
Mary and Joseph did not fail to understand because of an archaic language problem or because they didn’t do a word study on what Jesus said to them!
Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17a Do not ye yet understand…
This was not due to Peter’s lack of education!
The Real Problem
1. The Bible is a sealed book
For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed: Is. 29:10,11
2. Man’s separation from God caused by sin darkens his understanding.
And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. Rev. 5:2,4
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the Lord understand all [things]. Prov. 28:5
Deliver the poor and needy: rid [them] out of the hand of the wicked.
They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. Ps. 82:4,5
2. At his best, his very best, man’s mind cannot penetrate this darkness which blackens the Book.
Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, [even] a
marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; [and] their hearts, that they cannot understand.
Luk 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
4. The only Way of understanding the Bible is Jesus Christ.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Job 32:8 But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
1Ch 22:12 Only the Lord give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the Lord thy God.
2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
Multiple versions and wrestling with languages have not given us understanding or helped make the cloudy clear. These things have done much to sweep away our sureness of truth. We must settle in our hearts that “thy Word is truth”. This is called faith. Believe that what you are reading is the pure and preserved Word of God!
Psa 119:140 Thy word [is] very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
Psa 12:6,7 The words of the Lord [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven
times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Heb 11:3a Through faith we understand…
Pro 30:5 Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Practical Keys to Understanding the Bible
1. When we are saved, we receive a new heart where God’s Spirit dwells.
Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eph 1:17, 18 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of
him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Isa 11:2, 3 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the
Lord; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
2. Pray before you read and study.
Psa 119:34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with [my] whole heart.
119:73 Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.
119:125 I [am] thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies.
119:169 Let my cry come near before thee, O Lord: give me understanding according to thy word.
Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
3. Saturate your senses with the Bible, rather than TV, radio (even preachers), books, magazines, newspapers, conversation, etc.
Pro 17:24 Wisdom [is] before him that hath understanding; but the eyes of a fool [are] in the ends of the earth.
Pro 15:14 The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.
Pro 4:7 Wisdom [is] the principal thing; [therefore] get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Deut. 6:6-9 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.
-also through Bible teaching at church…
Act 8:30, 31 And Philip ran thither to [him], and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Psa 73:17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; [then] understood I their end.
4. Seek
-Daily
Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary [food].
Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
-Study; seek to have difficulties revealed to you, rather than rely on commentaries, reference books, etc.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
-For a lifetime. Be blessed to understand at your current level and to grow in understanding as you mature.
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
Heb 5:12-14 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong
meat. For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Is 28:9,10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts.
For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:
5. Delight yourself in the Lord. In what do I delight? We live in a culture of running after self-satisfaction.
Psa 1:2 But his delight [is] in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Pro 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.
6. Think and meditate. What do you think about? Really…
Psa 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies [are] my meditation.
1Ti 4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
7. Obey and walk in the light God has given you. Then you can grow in understanding. Without obedience, deception is the result. When sin creeps in, be open to correction.
Psa 119:100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Pro 15:32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.
8. God requires (and is pleased by) faith. Heb 11:3a Through faith we understand…
9. Check your motives. 1Co 8:1b Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
10. Are you willing to pay the price that comes with having a revelation of God’s Word?
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Other Things to Remember
 Avoid developing (or even trying to develop) a theological “system”. The temptation is to try to “know it all” in that area, and then try to fit the Bible to match your position. This gives us a feeling of “security”. In reality, it is idolatry. Think about it.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
 Prophetic scripture is only fully understood when it is fulfilled. Don’t “strain” at trying to fully understand it now.
Dan 12:8,9 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what [shall be] the end of these [things]?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Luk 9:45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.
Edited by: extwi
at: 9/24/00 5:27:29 pm
| Prothimos (9/24/00 8:59:56 pm)
| new method Evan,
Excellent, really excellent, thank you. BTW, it's P-R-O-T-H-I-M-O-S not U-S. God Bless.
| JBarrax (9/24/00 9:17:54 pm)
| Re: Death and resurrection: part one
Great post
Evan! much food for thought there. Let me reiterate, when I speak of a new method, I'm not talking about a purely intellectual system, but a process by which we endeavor to receive revelation. I believe God works within me when I study His Word. "Consider what I say and the Lord give you understanding in all things" The method is
simply an organized way of doing that considering.
Well, let's get into this. The section of PFAL with which we're dealing is in Part III, How the Bible Interprets Itself: Chapter 13; In It Context. I don't see any problem with the basic idea of interpreting the Bible in its context, with the exception I mentioned yesterday, that we should check the context before going to word studies and "scripture buildup". As he used the Scripture harmony and Scripture buildup to present his version of the crucifixion of Christ, Dr.
Wierwille used the section on context to set forth his theology on death and the afterlife.
The fact that he tried to preach the gospel while teaching his "keys to the Word's interpretation" is commendable. Unfortunately, much of what he preached about the crucifixion is suspect at best, erroneous and divisive at worst. This section on context has the same flavor; it is an extended criticism of the Church and each verse he uses as an example of one taken out of context makes other minister look foolish. He could have taught the same lesson without this apparently divisive undercurrent, but for whatever reason, chose not to.
The Scripture he cites spends the most time on is Matthew 22:32 and its context. After dealing with the context of Matthew 22;32, he goes on an extended sermon about the 'challenging counterfeit' without mentioning scripture. The best way I can think of to deal with this is to quote much of it and supply the verses I think support or contradict what's said. Although there are problems on the horizon that are foreshadowed in this sermon, I think most of what he says here is accurate. (The problems on the horizon are in his definition and description of soul life, which we'll get to in a moment.) Let's start with Matthew 22. On pages 184-185, we read;
"In Matthew 22 is a verse of Scripture that is frequently used at the memorial service for a saint of God who has worked diligently for the local church. This person was a fine influence in the community, and having passed away, the minister selects Matthew 22:32 as his text at the funeral"
...God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
The saint's body is lying in the casket, he is dead: but somehow or other, we say he is not dead, he is living. Why not check the context? What is Matthew talking about when he says that "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"?
The twenty-third verse says, "...which say there is no resurrection, and asked him..."; and verse 31, "But as touching the resurrection..." What is the context? The context is talking about the resurrection, not about death. Death and resurrection are far removed subjects."
Well, they are not all that far removed, but they are different. This is a very important distinction VP makes here. There are far more verses in the Bible about resurrection than about death. If we read the record in Matthew 22 and ask ourselves "what does it not say, we see this distinction reinforced. The Sadducees did not ask, "Where are these dead people now and what are they doing?" In other words, the Sadducees' question didn't deal with the nature of death, but about the circumstances of the resurrection, which follows death. This fits the overall scope or greater context of the Gospels. More on that later. Back to the book. Page 187.
"To talk of people dying and then their being alive and in heaven can lead one into many devious fields such as the so-called research and learning in extrasensory perception, in parapsychology and in subjects dealing with survival after death."
I believe this statement can be proven right by the record of King Saul and the witch of Endor recorded in I Samuel 28.
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
Because Saul believed that Samuel, who had died, was still alive somewhere and accessible, he fell into a grave sin; He consorted with a woman with a "familiar spirit". This was strictly forbidden in the Law. Such a woman would be considered a psychic in our culture, so I think VP's statement here is Biblically sound.
Some people knew ahead of time that President Kennedy was going to be killed. What good was it to know ahead of time since he was still killed? When God talked to a prophet and told him the army of the north was going to come to Israel at a certain place, God did not reveal this knowledge and yet have all the people slaughtered...Israel was protected against the attack.
This can be seen in II Kings, among other places. The exception to this statement would be the prophecies against Israel, such as those by Jeremiah, which warned of impending disaster brought on by idolatry unrepented of. But despite the fact that the
prophesied tragedy still came to pass, even in these cases the profit of the revelation was available. It was lost because it fell on deaf ears.
II Kings 6:11-13
8 Then the king of Syria warred against Israel, and took counsel with his servants, saying, In such and such a place shall be my camp.
9 And the man of God sent unto the king of Israel, saying, Beware that thou pass not such a place; for thither the Syrians are come down.
10 And the king of Israel sent to the place which the man of God told him and warned him of, and saved himself there, not once nor twice.
A comparison of the outcome of the prophecies of Elisha versus that of the woman of Endor bears out this truth. Elisha's prophecy brought deliverance. Even those of Jeremiah were laden with appeals for Israel to repent and avoid the
prophesied destruction (Jeremiah 4:14, 18:8). The prophecy of the woman of Endor contained no such light.
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
This record also bears out the veracity of VP's statement that the information given by mediums and psychics is sometimes accurate. What the woman said about Saul's disobedience was true and was perhaps the "hook" of the false prophecy. Without these truths mixed into their declarations, people wouldn't follow their advice. The reason for its accuracy is addressed in the next part of this paragraph; still on page 188.
The reason Satan is having such a grand picnic is that few people believe in Satan or in devil spirits. They all say there is only one God. The Bible says there are two. One is the God and Father of
our Lord Jesus Christ; the other is the god of this world who is Satan...Many times the information from the devil spirits is accurate because if they were always inaccurate, nobody would believe them.
In fairness to the rest of the Church, this statement isn't exactly true. Here, VP ignores or glosses over the truth that many Christians know of the existence and power of our adversary. The secular world fits his description, but they are the same people who deny the power of the true God, so this statement is a bit distorted. I think most Christians who believe the Bible is God's Word also believe in the existence of Satan. VP did not corner the market on this insight. As for scriptural proof, there is of course II Corinthians 4:4. "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious
gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." So because of his position as the god of this world, Satan has access to information and can pass it to psychics in order to legitimize their 'prophecies' such as that of the witch of Endor.
"The Bible says that when a man dies he is dead and he stays dead until the return of Christ and the resurrection. Nobody who has died is living with the exception of the Lord Jesus Christ, whom the Bible declares God raised him from the dead. All the rest are waiting the return of Christ."
This statement is corroborated in I Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
So far, so good. Now we come to page 189, paragraph two.
The reason spiritualists keep propounding the counterfeit is the the accuracy of the Word of God has never prevailed in our time in the Protestant or the Roman Catholic Church. Most groups have taught that when one dies, he is not really dead; somehow or other he goes to heaven or paradise, as they call it. The Bible says that when one dies, he stays dead until he is raised."
Let's hit the pause button for a moment. "The Bible says that when one dies, he stays dead..." What exactly does the Bible say about death? Actually, not much. The most concise and informative passage in the Bible about death is in Ecclesiastes chapter nine.
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
According to Ecclesiastes, a dead person has no awareness. The word "device" in verse 10 means "thought". There is no work, nor thought, nor knowledge nor wisdom in death. "For the dead know not anything." Perhaps more importantly, in relation to the topic of spiritualism and psychics, is the statement "...neither have they a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun." A dead person cannot
warn a living person about anything because the deceased have neither knowledge to impart, nor the ability to communicate with the living. So essentially I think VP is correct in these statements. Unfortunately, the next statement is not as defensible.
"Why should there be a raising of the dead if a person is already alive? The reason we have to have a resurrection is because people are dead. Some people say to me that God has to bring one's spirit back and reunite it with his body. How silly. If a person got along for a hundred years without a body, why should he take the time to come back and pick one up?"
This is where the problems begin. Later in the class, in the context of body, soul, and spirit, VP teaches that the spirit of a deceased saint goes back to God who gave it. In session six discussing the forming of man's body from the dust of the ground, in Genesis 3:19 he says, "Because of the law that's involved. Everything must ultimately go back to its original form." A "law" is inferred from this verse and statements are made that are not and probably cannot be substantiated in the Bible. From the springboard of this "law", VP goes on for about five minutes about how the eastern religions which have a heaven for all the animals are right and logical if you believe the soul is spirit because the spirit came from God and must go back to God.
This problem is compounded in Session seven during the teaching about the new birth when, in discussing Ephesians 2:10, he says "God recreates the dead man spiritually." The concept of the gift of holy spirit being a new you, or "the real you" became entrenched in TWI thought and teaching, demonstrated by the title of John Lynn's first book, Will the Real You Please Stand Up?. If God recreates the dead (unsaved) man spiritually and that spirit becomes the "real you"; and, if the spirit must go back to God "because of the law that's involved", then when a Christian dies, where does he go? He goes to heaven! Then the people whom VP ridicules in the paragraph above are correct.
However, the "law" about everything ultimately going back to its original source has a gaping hole in it. VP denies that the soul is spirit, but never says WHERE IT CAME FROM. Soul life, he says, is "passed on" by the union of sperm and egg. One's soul life is "passed on" to his progeny, unless he or she has no children, in which case it simply dies. But what about the law? Why wouldn't the person's soul life obey the law and go back where it came from? Because that would mean the soul life of a childless
person would have to go back to their parents, which is an absurd and impossible notion.
So am I saying that Christians go to heaven when they die? No, that's a contradiction of I Corinthians 15:23. I'm simply pointing out the fact that Dr.
Wierwille's criticism of the Church is undermined by the gross inconsistencies in his own doctrines. With that encouraging thought in mind, let's move on. This post is long enough, so I'll pick up with page 190 next.
Peace
Jerry
| Twosum (9/25/00 12:46:33 pm)
| Re: Death and resurrection: part one Zechariah 12:1 - "formeth the spirit of man within him"
Ecclesiastes 12:7 - "Then shall dust return to the earth as it was : and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"
While rehashing this pfal thread, one might want to read Isaiah 29:10 thru 24.
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| Mandii
(9/25/00 2:03:25 pm)
| Re: Death and resurrection: part one I find it ridiculous that VP would use a scripture in the OT, the one about the spirit returning to God to describe the new birth. That scripture isn't talking about the new birth, has no reference to it and therefore is just pulling a scripture of out context to support a weak logic.
There are many factors and doctrines that the rest of Christianity believes, but Wierwille NEVER approached any of them in dealing with the dead are alive now.
Jesus speaking about the bosom of Abraham where the righteous dead of the OT went; therefore Christians who believe that the dead are alive now do NOT believe that the OT dead ascended to heaven or that anyone did before Jesus did. Some argue that story of Jesus is a parable and yet names are never assigned to parables.
Ephesians talks about taking captivity captive and lead a train to heaven; many believe this is the state of the righteous dead and the biggest captivity is the same as the father of all fears--death.
VP goes to great lengths to dismiss the fact the dead are alive now. For him to equate believing that the dead are alive now equals spiritualism is basically doctrinal blackmail; an
elitist it's my way or you are of the devil.
He uses a great big fear tactic to convince people NOT to believe in the dead being alive now, instead of a logical thought through doctrinal thesis.
I looked up the words used in describing us being raised in Thessalonians and none of them mean to come back to life or to wake up but to 'stand up.'
1 Corinthians is not contradicted by believing that the dead are alive now. Revelations ALSO describes those who have not experienced the bodily resurrection and let me point out that in Adam, all men are dead spiritually and will die physically BUT that does NOT men that all men are dead right now. It's indicating the spiritual state of the sin Adam brought in. In Jesus, those who believe in him and made alive spiritually BUT that physical resurrection doesn't come until a later date but that does not mean a person is sleeping in soul death waiting for the new body. It is indicating the future spiritual state of those, the redemption completed, the salvation realized, we will come alive, truly and the second death has no power over us and then death will be swallowed up and have no more sting. Right now it stings.
Mandii | JBarrax (9/25/00 9:54:23 pm)
| Re: the spirit goes back? Thanks Twosum. The verse in Ecclesiastes is interesting, especially since you'd think VP would have included it as a proof text in his teachings on body, soul and spirit. But on closer examination, I think I see why he left it out.
The verse is written in Ecclesiastes during an age in which only a very few people had holy spirit upon them. Yet it speaks in all inclusive language referring to an experience common to all.
1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
This passage deals with the universal experience of aging and death. However,
according to Weirwille, having holy spirit was not a universal experience, especially not in the age during which Ecclesiastes was written. Just the opposite was true. Those who had spirit upon them were a select few. Therefore the word "spirit" cannot be accurately interpreted as a reference to holy spirit, but rather to soul life. Although the Hebrew word used is
ruach, not nephesh, Ruach is sometimes used to refer to soul life (as VP indicates in PFAL when he calls soul life "the spirit of man"). Not only is
ruach used in reference to human souls, but of animals as well.
Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath
(ruach; spirit) of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath
(ruach: spirit) of life.
Genesis 41:8 And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.
Did Pharoah have holy spirit upon him? No. His soul was troubled. Had he had holy spirit upon him, he wouldn't have needed Joseph to interpret his dream. The word
ruach is also used in reference to intense emotion or strength, and courage; all aspects of soul life.
So this verse in Ecclesiastes says the opposite of what PFAL says; soul life does not die. It goes back to God. Dr.
Wierwille's repeated references to a heaven for Rover the dog "and old Bah Bah Black sheep!" seem to be a deceitful way of brushing aside a valid biblical conclusion. By presenting such a seemingly silly idea and associating it with the belief that the soul lives on, he effectively contradicted Ecclesiastes 12:7 (and several other verses I haven't mentioned yet) without mentioning it specifically.
Peace
Jerry
| Twosum (9/26/00 2:02:56 am)
| Re: the spirit goes back? Hi Jerry: I would like to butt in here a minute, if you don't mind ?
Jerry, I would like you to notice , that we are very close to being in agreement here. So don't take this as some kind of reproof. But always look for the helpful understandings within what I say.
The Hebrew word "ruach" is NOT "soul life" !
Soul life is breath life, and all we need to do is breath, not talk to show we have soul life. Even a grunt will be
sufficient to show that one has soul life
This Hebrew word "ruach" is in reference to the "emotions"(Example of emotions - psalms 77:3) -and "actions" (Example of actions - is Genesis 1:2) , and not very many usages refer to anyone talking or commenting utilizing this word "ruach" (spirit). Comments about , yes, but not the utilization of the word "ruach" (spirit) in words.
The spirit "ruach" of the living creature - means "actions" of this living creature. A good example of this is in Exekiel 10:17 = the "actions" of the "cherubims". Another good example is Malachi 2:15 - "Take heed to your spirit" - meaning "actions" or "emotions".
So - does soul life go back to God ? NO! Once you stop breathing , your soul life ends - period ! Your "ruach" - spirit - goes back to God, which he "formed" in you. What did God form in us ? It is called , the "understanding" of man . Spirit understands spiritual things (matters).
In Proverbs 20:27 it states that - "The spirit of man (is) the candle of the Lord". This word "spirit" is the Hebrew word "neshamah", and means to "breath" - or speak out. But remember that not all things spoken out is the candle of the Lord. But those things spoken out that give light , that are from and of God, is this Hebrew word "neshamah".
But, God uses this Hebrew word "ruach" in his explanation that "his spirit will not always strive with man" > Genesis 6:3. So there is no connection between soul life and this Hebrew word "ruach", or else man would die , because of a lack of oxygen , because he would not be breathing. So that does not make any sense.
So what does go back to God ? This "ruach" spirit ? What goes back to God is our spiritual "actions" and "emotions" that God formed in us > Zechariah 12:1 ? ? Breath life , or soul life ? NO - not soul life or this kind of breath life ! Look at a usage of "this"
particular "breath life" . It does not mean breathing life, but it does mean "action" or "emotion" part of life, that God forms in you and it goes back to God. Example is Job 17:1 - "my breath (ruach) is strange". Another example of the use of this Hebrew word (ruach)using the translated word "breath" is in Genesis 6:17 , and the usage is still "actions" or "emotions" in this verse also. Now if you look in your concordance , you will see the words "breath - air - wind - spirit" - because all life that is living has a form of spiritual life , and this spiritual life has "actions" and "emotions". Animals can
squeal, like a pig when being slaughtered, and the spiritual life of the pig is leaving through the "actions" and "emotions" of this pig. Even animals "do not want to die".
Here is one more , just for the fun of it - another example is in Ezekiel 37:5 , and the word - ah heck I will type it out - "Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold , I will cause "breath" (ruach) to enter into you, and ye shall live". The word "breath" (ruach) in this verse means "actions" and "emotions", which would include "soul life" which is the "other" breath life = to breath (nephesh)and not "ruach" ! This word "nephesh" also means "being", or to say "your being" - or - how you are feeling (not emotions !).
Oh boy, I am tired and its time for bed before I make some grave error and start to "ruach" with my breath in a funny way
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
Edited by: Twosum at: 9/26/00 2:02:56 am
| JBarrax (9/27/00 9:50:50 pm)
| Re: the spirit goes back? Twosum, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that when a natural man expires, the actions and emotions that his soul produced go "back" to God, but his soul itself dies.
Is that really what you're saying? Consider please that something can't go back to God unless it came FROM God. Would you really have us believe that our actions and emotions came from God, but our soul life did not?
I think that idea is more than a stretch.
While you're contemplating that, consider the following;
Revelation 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Here we have a scene from Revelation describing deceased saints in heaven. Whether they had been resurrected or not yet is not clear, but what is clear--and astounding for us former
Wierwillites--is that the Word here isn't talking about their spirits being in heaven, but their souls. Psuche, that is. So again, if the soul dies, these folks have no business under the throne of heaven! Another reason to discard PFAL doctrine regarding the mortality of the soul. But wait, there's more!
Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls (psuche) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Here again we have God's Word speaking of the souls of dead saints. Here it is quite clear that we are reading about resurrected believers. Note the end of verse five. Please note that of these souls, the Bible says, "...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Can there be any doubt that VP was wrong in this regard?
According to Revelation, the soul does not die with the body, but lives on in heaven.
Jesus spoke of the soul being separate from the body.
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (gehenna)
By sheer logic, if one is able to kill the body and is not able to kill the soul, the soul does not die with the body. The destruction of the soul is not, according to Our Lord,
physical death, but rather damnation. A soul isn't lost when a person dies, but when he dies as a sinner condemned to the lake of fire.
Jesus taught that one could kill the body, without being able to kill the soul. VP
Wierwille says the soul dies with the body. Well who do you think was right, Jesus Christ or V.P.
Wierwille? No doubt in my mind about that. Jesus Christ rightly divided the Word.
I Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
How, praytell, if one's soul dies with the body, is God going to preserve our whole spirit and
soul and body until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ? According to PFAL doctrine, only our body and spirit would be preserved because the spirit goes back to God who gave it, and the body would be raised and changed at Christ's appearing. If that is true, Paul's benediction makes no sense. If the soul disappears with my last breath, it can't be
preserved until the gathering together.
Obviously not only Ecclesiastes 12:7, but also Revelation, Matthew, and I Thessalonians declare that soul life is more
than "breath life" born of sperm and egg. It's much more than what PFAL says it is. If the Lord tarries, our bodies will fail, but our souls will live on; they will go back to God who gave them; they will be preserved until the Lord's return; after which our souls will be in heaven for a long, long, time. HALLELUJAH!
Now that we know what it is not, we can begin to search the Word of God for an accurate understanding of what it is.
Peace
Jerry
| Twosum (9/28/00 9:33:11 am)
| Re: the spirit goes back? Hi Jerry - you asked > "Twosum, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that when a natural man expires, the actions and emotions that his soul produced go "back" to God, but his soul itself dies.
Is that really what you're saying? Consider please that something can't go back to God unless it came FROM God. Would you really have us believe that our actions and emotions came from God, but our soul life did not? "
Jerry: Remember we are talking about the "spirit of man", and that we have free will that goes along with the spirit of man that is formed within us.
These particular "actions" and "emotions" are "Godly actions and emotions". The reason I say this ,is because the "spirit of man" that God forms within us, will only "act" and "respond" from a Godly manner, when we
operate, or put into action this "spirit of man", it is there for the use that it was intended. We are not robots , and thus because of our free will, we can still do things our own
individual way. If you would study this Hebrew word in detail , you will notice how it is "used". What this means is, is that man can utilize this spirit of man, but does not have too, because of freedom of will.
That which God forms in us - goes back to God ! The actions and emotions being Godly "actions" and "emotions" go back to God who "also" has these "actions" and "emotions".
Yes, your "soul" (Nephesh and psuche) life "passes" - "ceases", with you dying. Your "breath life" and "feelings" (non - emotional). < These are the two meanings of this Hebrew and Greek word "soul".
Now I will read the rest of your post <pause>
After reading most of your post I though I would jump back here and explain something. The word "soul" has two meanings as I have explained above. But what need further explanation is that each meaning has a meaning. Bear with me here for a moment.
As you are correct Jerry , that the soul does not die . What you have to realize , is that the meaning of this word has not been given to its utmost detail before.
When Dr. VPW said that you soul dies, he was wrong in the usage of the word dies. Error's like this cause no end of confusion. But he was not totally wrong either. Your soul, meaning your breath life does not die, it ceases. The same with your "feeling". But I am dealing with the literal at this point.
We know from what you have shared with us , that a dead person does not remember anything. But a resurrected saint does ! He is no longer dead ! He also is no longer a living breathing human being either. He will have a body fashioned liken unto the Lord's. After Jesus Christ's resurrection, did he forget anything that he knew prior to his death ? No , right ? He had not forgotten anything . Now we are dealing with the spiritual, and not the literal understanding of the defined word "feelings". Also the words "breath life" give us the ability to speak and form words. This is the literal. The spiritual is no different in that it has a spiritual body , but still can communicate. So does the soul die - NO. But it does cease to function - operate.
So now I can answer your last question. Our soul life came from God , just as much as our actions and emotions did - "spirit of man". But we 'must' understand the literal meaning of "soul" and the spiritual meaning of "soul". Both are from God, one ceases and the other is a part of being "born again", spiritually.
What I just explained to you above will help you more fully understand Matthew 10:28. Breath life and feelings "cease", but can not be killed. They become revitalized again, in that day when we are literally born again, when Christ comes back to gather up the Church. We will be able to speak again and communicate and we will remember the past.
So basically speaking, Dr. VPW was half right, because he lacked the more fully understanding of this word "soul".
You said in one of your statements below Jerry > " A soul isn't lost when a person dies, but when he dies as a sinner condemned to the lake of fire. "
They also will remember Jerry. Those who go to the second death will remember also, and this is part of the punishment within the Lake of Fire. Remember its "eternal" - weeping gnashing of teeth !
I think this is the answer you are looking for.
God Bless
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
Edited by: Twosum at: 9/28/00 9:33:11 am
| Mandii
(9/28/00 8:00:13 am)
| Re: the spirit goes back? Jerry, isn't the truth of God's Word awesome?????
Only God has the power over a person's soul to destroy or let live. Just as Jesus said.
And the souls in Heaven are awaiting their final complete redemption of their new spiritual bodies where the SECOND death has no power. Cause in soul state, they are not completely redeemed yet.
VP mocked this in PFAL yet it is God's Word that he mocked. He said if people flew around without their bodies for years, then why do they want to come back and pick one (body) up???
Because it is God's Will and Plan for us to be redeemed, to give us a body, spiritually that was/will be better than Adam's. It's God's will that with that new body, death can no longer touch us, no how no way and we can then eat of the tree of life in Revelation, something God prohibited Adam and Eve from doing.
VP used scriptures from the OT to describe the state of the dead. Yet, people who were inspired to write, yet could only write of what God let them know about the after life.
We all agree that we are the mystery, that be belonged to the plan that God hid in Christ Jesus. We all agree that if the prince of the world knew the riches of what God had planned for us, he would never have crucified the Lord of glory.
I Corinthians 15 describes our complete redemption where death is swallowed up as a MYSTERY and yet we still use scriptures from the OT, scriptures that are God breathed but STILL don't have the mystery revealed to explain the true state of the dead???
No, no righteous dead entered God's presence before the ascending of Jesus Christ. They were in
Abraham's bosom. So, it makes sense that one would mourn death as being away from God.
I Thess 4: 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
How can Jesus bring with him those who went first in physical death if there are not there with him already?
I looked that word bring up once and if I did it correctly, it means to lead along, take with one (used of persons) lead as a general.
Phil 1:21,23
For me to live is Christ, and to die gain.
For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better.
| evanpyle (9/28/00 8:10:39 am)
| Re: the spirit goes back? mull, mull, mull, mull.
This is me, mulling.
| Twosum (9/28/00 12:21:28 pm)
| Re: the spirit goes back? Hi Jerry - you said > "How, praytell, if one's soul dies with the body, is God going to preserve our whole spirit and soul and body until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ? According to PFAL doctrine, only our body and spirit would be preserved because the spirit goes back to God who gave it, and the body would be raised and changed at Christ's appearing. If that is true, Paul's benediction makes no sense. If the soul disappears with my last breath, it can't be
preserved until the gathering together."
Jerry: This preserving of body , soul and spirit is kind of unique. But I also gave examples of soul and spirit in my other post. And I can deal with the "body" at another time. So I don't feel a need to repeat those understanding here in this post.
What I would like to key in on, is the "spirit" here. This is the word "pneuma", and there are more than one kind of "pneuma" spirits in the plural. This "spirit" - "pneuma" that God is going to preserve and is "not" going back to God, is the "spirit of his Son" - which is the seed of Christ IN us - the "riches of the Mystery". You keep this spirit ! This spirit of Christ IN you is also "mortal" and it only "sleepeth" while it awaits the gathering. This mortal spirit - Christ IN you - which is the Spirit of his Son, is how God preserves "this spirit" !
This "spirit" of Christ IN you is also how he preserves "that" body that is mentioned in this verse, because it is going to be a body fashioned liken unto Christ's "body". So the words "our body" is the new body we are going to receive, as it is being preserved in the seed of Christ IN you. The "soul" as explained in my previous post is also connected to this "spirit" of Christ IN you, that is sleeping, and awaiting the gathering. So the three are connected to this one word "spirit" - which is Christ IN you !
This spirit "is" and "equals" your new body and soul, which is spiritual.
Love IN Christ - TWOsum
| JBarrax (10/1/00 7:15:45 pm)
| Re: Death and resurrection part 2
Well hello all you blessed people. Sorry about the hiatus, but I've been studying Are the Dead Alive Now? and the parables of the gospels. More on that in a moment. For now, let's pick up again with page 190 of PFAL.
Where are the dead? They are dead. How long are they going to stay dead? They are going to stay dead until Christ returns.
People try to confuse the accuracy of God's Word by giving the example of Moses and Elijah who appeared to Jesus and three of his disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration and with whom Jesus talked. The Word of God says that they saw Moses and Elijah in a vision. A vision is not producing the men themselves.
This is a reference to Matthew 17:2-9 and is, I believe, an accurate representation of the Biblical record.
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Although there is another Greek word translated "vision" that refers to the actual presence of a supernatural being (used of Jesus' appearance on the road to Damascus and Gabriel's appearance to Zacharias' John the Baptist's father), this word, horama refers to a visual form of revelation in which that which is seen is not physically there (also used in Acts 10:17&19). Moses and Elijah weren't physically present with Jesus on the Mount. Back to page 190; paragraph three.
Unknowing people say Enoch was such a good man that he never saw death because God translated him. Let us read the record in context.
Hebrews 11:5:
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
"by faith Enoch was translated," The word "translated" is the word "transported", meaning "taken from one place to another." He was not taken form one spot up to another place; he was taken from one place over to another "...that he should not see death." The word "see" is eidon, which means to "look at with actual perception with one's eyes" or literally "to see
someone die." In checking the Old Testament, we discover that Enoch had never seen anybody pass away...."
This last statement is preposterous. There is no such record in the Old Testament! This statement is utter b.s.; a fabrication designed to support VP's argument that Enoch had died. In fact, the context of the Old Testament record indicates the opposite, as I've already mentioned in the first part of this thread. Enoch is mentioned in the lineage of Adam in Genesis chapter 5 with Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahaleel, Jarend and Methusaleh. Of each of these men, the biblical record concludes, "and he died". Enoch is the only man in the list whose death is not recorded. I think it would be silly to rewrite the entire post, but if you'd like to go read it and come back, just
click here.
I believe the context of Hebrews 11 supports VP's claim that the great cloud of witnesses with which we are surrounded is the Biblical record of the faith of the
believers of the Old Testament. They, by faith, became witnesses to all. Back to PFAL; page 192, paragraph 2
"Contortionists of the Word also come with the reference from Philippians 1:21 where Paul says, "for me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Philippians does not say the gain is immediate..."Actually, although I basically agree with what VP said here, I think the case could have been better stated by referring to the context of Philippians. After all, context is what we're supposed to be learning about at this point in the book
isn 't it? The context of Philippians is the furtherance of the gospel and Paul's commitment to it. He stated in 1:20 that his earnest expectation and hope was that, whether he lived or died, Christ would be magnified. If he lived, he could magnify Christ by continuing to minister to the Church (as stated in verses 24-26). If he died, he would magnify Christ by his unflagging
commitment to the truth and his refusal to recant Christ's gospel. So the gain is not to be understood as the gain of Paul going to heaven, because Paul's personal benefit is not at all the focus here or anywhere in Philippians. Philippians is about service and Paul is just one of the examples of a doulos presented therein. His personal gain is irrelevant. The interpretation of the word "gain" must fit with the epistle and therefore must be understood as the gain of the furtherance of the gospel.
And now for the most difficult of the passages in this section..
"Skeptics talk about the rich man and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom;"Well he certainly covered that fully, didn't he? Any questions?
Good! It is dealt with in a little more detail in
Are the Dead Alive Now?. Having reviewed the first half of that book and having reviewed everything I've read about death and resurrection, and having reviewed all the parables of the gospels, I've come to the conclusion that the record in Luke 16 is indeed a parable. I know it doesn't say it is, but most of the parables in the gospels aren't
labeled as such. The story of Lazarus follows a series of parables that stretches across two "chapters" of that gospel beginning in Luke 14:7 with the parable about the wedding guest. I won't burden the thread with a list of all the parables in between this one and Lazarus, but it is important that we note that several of those just ahead of the Lazarus parable deal with the importance of repentance.
The parable of the lost sheep in Luke 15:3-7 the woman who lost her coin (15:8-10), and the famous prodigal son parable (15:11-32) all teach of the rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents. These are followed by a series of parables about wealth and the proper stewardship thereof. If the context of chapter 14 is carried forward, the audience for these lessons was a group of wealthy Pharisees with whom Jesus was dining as an invited guest. So the parable about wealth and subsequent declarations about stewardship, (16:1-12) as well as Jesus' clear remarks about not being able to serve both God and mammon (16:13) were designed to reach these people who were not headed for the resurrection of the just. The tale begins with the phrase, "there was a rich man who fared sumptuously every day." That could have described any one of the men with whom Jesus was sitting.
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus concludes his statements to the Pharisees and puts the exclamation point at the end by making the
unmistakable statement that repentance is not to be put off and that rich people needed to repent just as much as anyone else. In Jesus' parable, the rich man's pleas for relief go unheeded. His pleas for an ambassador to his wayward family go unheeded. We only get one life and we don't know when it ends, so our salvation is not something we can afford to put off. Salvation must be secured before anything else, including and especially worldly wealth.
Having decided it was a parable, the next problem was that it contradicts what is written about the nature of death in
Ecclesiastes and Psalms, and Proverbs. We've already looked at Ecclesiastes chapter nine and its assertion that the dead know not anything. To this we can add Psalms 6:5 and 146:4.
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
According to the Old Testament, death is a state of total lack of consciousness. According to Jesus' parable, death is an acute awareness of bliss or torment. Because it is a parable, this isn't a problem. There are other parables whose primary lesson is
delivered by including some elements or ideas that aren't actually true. Consider the following:
THE UNJUST JUDGE: Luke 18:1-8
1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
This parable about prayer includes an unjust judge. Was Jesus teaching that God is an uncaring unrighteous curmudgeon who only answers the prayers of those who bug him to death? No, of course not. In fact, verse one is a disclaimer to make sure we don't interpret it that way. The main point of the parable is that we should pray until our needs are filled, not that God is an unjust despot.
THE TEN BRIDES: Matthew 25:1-10
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
There is not one verse in the gospels that depicts Jesus promoting
polygamy. He taught that if a man put away one woman for another, he was an adulterer. He presented marriage as a one man-one woman arrangement, and his standards on marriage were even stricter than Moses' (Matthew 19:4-9). Yet in this parable, he depicts a man marrying FIVE women at once. So was he promoting gang matrimony? No, the brides were to represent Israel (or the Church depending on your theology; haven't figured that one out yet) and the groom was obviously him at his return.
THE UNFAITHFUL SERVANT: Matthew 24:45-51
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
This servant was not faithful, so his Lord came back and cut him into pieces. I don't think Jesus was advocating that householders and employers mete out this kind of punishment to their unfaithful servants. He was once again preaching the urgency of repentance and faithfulness, preparing Israel for his return and the "day of vengeance of our God." Much of the gospels can be understood in this light. Remember that, at the beginning of his ministry (Luke 4:18-21), Jesus quoted from Isaiah 61:1 & 2, but stopped at "the acceptable year of the Lord" , omitting "the day of vengeance of our God". Then he said, "this day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears".
The gospels are the record of the acceptable year of the Lord during which Jesus was preparing Israel for the day of vengeance of our God. This is why he spent so much time preaching to them about the separating of the wheat from the chaff and why so many parables deal with repentance or the return of a master or Lord. The constant references to harvests, flames, and such were designed to move God's people to repentance and righteousness so they would not be included in the resurrection of the unjust and be cast into the lake of fire. (Matthew 3:11 & 12, 5:29 & 30, 7:19, 10:28, 13:24-51, 18:8 & 9, 24:32-51, Mark 9:43-48, and Luke 17:24-37)
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Well, that about wraps up the are the dead alive content of the context section. As
I said above, I think there are errors in VP's statements about soul life and its mortality, but I also believe that, with the exception of Enoch, what he presented in PFAL about death itself is correct. The great majority of the scriptures that deal with "afterlife" are in the context of the gathering together or the resurrections. Indeed, most of the New Testament is in the context, for we are looking forward to the return of Christ at which time the dead in Christ will be raised and our everlasting life will begin in earnest (pardon the pun). There is actually very little written in the Bible about death itself. None of those who were raised from the dead by prophets, apostles, or Our Lord gave testimony to what it was like to be dead. Nor did Jesus himself talk of it with his disciples, as far as we know. The emphasis in God's word is not about what death is, but about the eventual defeat of death, what LIFE will be like when death has been vanquished, and what to do in the meantime in anticipation of our future glory.
Revelation 22:1-5
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
I Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Peace
Jerry
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