| Author |
Comment |
evanpyle
Most Likely to Post in ME ME ME
(1/26/01 7:19:35 am)
|
Re: When "born
again"?
No 'new birth'...DOH!!!...caught by my own argument!
This is
me carefully putting away the scissors...
Receiving the Holy
Spirit the literal, born again the metaphorical. Well, I never
thought about that but it strikes me as the clear truth of it.
Thanks.
This is me, running without scissors, but still in a
hurry to remove from my neurons the lexicon of hype phraseology |
Steve
Lortz
Had Fries with Gravy last
night
(1/26/01 9:11:00
am)
|
Re: the "new
birth"
Evan - Bravo! Bravissimo!
Love,
Steve |
Sunlight8
Needs glasses -- Thinks the cook is
cute
(1/26/01 11:30:47
am)
|
Re: PFAL
Review
Steve,
"If Christianity began on the day of Pentecost, and
that was also the beginning of "the great mystery", then we souldn't
be able to find anything about the "new birth", in the gospels, and
we would expect Paul to be writing about the "new birth" all over
the place. But when we crack open our concordances, we find the
reverse to be the case. About half the uses of "born..." phrases are
in the gospels, or more accurately, one gospel, the gospel of
John."
There is this...
John 7:39
(But his
spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should
receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus
was not yet glorified.)
Frankly, I was a little puzzled about
Jesus explaining getting born again in John 3, till I read this
verse.
Perhaps the difference between John and Paul is they
were different men using different vocabularies. Another possiblity
along that line is John had personally spent a lot of time with
Jesus who used that term, whereas Paul had not. Even the gospel of
John spells out the coming of the comforter as future, along with
the above. Also, the phrase is in I Peter once in English as born
again, but I found it in Greek as "begotten" in chapter 1:3. Peter
was also an apostle.
As far as the beginning of the mystery,
Ephesians one and two make it clear that it came about as a result
of the resurrection and glorification of Jesus Christ.
I
don't know if that will be satisfying, or if it is a complete
answer, but it's the best I can do.
Fun to think,
yes?
Deb |
Steve
Lortz
Had Fries with Gravy last
night
(1/26/01 12:02:38
pm)
|
Re: PFAL
Review
Yes, Deb, it *is* fun to think. I'm working on a more detailed
response to your last posting.
Love,
Steve |
JBarrax
Has had one cup of Java too many
(1/27/01 1:19:54 am)
|
Re: PFAL
Review
Speaking of "last posting", this will be mine.
I wrote
Thursday morning of 'pressing personal matters'. That was an
understatement. I have just been confronted with the searing
knowledge that I have spent the last 16 1/2 years sacrificing my
wife's heart on the altar of my self-interest and pride. I am
ashamed beyond words. I cannot continue in this manner, and feel
incapable of articulating any truth worth posting.
My mind
can dismantle the errors of PFAL, but my heart is "uncircumcised"
and barren.
I desire to leave this august body with some
parting wisdom that will sum up the countless hours I have poured
into this project, but I have none. I fear that what began as an
earnest quest for truth has become just another way of magnifying
myself and is therefore corrupt and errant.
I cannot in good
conscience continue to participate in this discussion at this time.
I love you all. God bless you richly, and thank you for having cared
and prayed for me.
Grace and Peace
Jerry
|
Sunlight88
Grease Spot Cafe Discoverer
(1/27/01 11:29:02 am)
|
Re: PFAL
Review
Jerry
I hardly know what to say except to wish you the best.
We are all changing, and certainly have gone through a lot since
leaving TWI. Hopefully they are changes for the better. The hardest
part is recognizing what we need to do.
I for one appreciate
all you've done. For me it was much bigger than separating truth
from error. I re-discovered God and His heart again. I re-gained my
desire to apply myself toward my spiritual life. For that I am more
than thankful.
Much love,
Deb |
evanpyle
Most Likely to Post in ME ME ME
(1/27/01 12:16:31 pm)
|
Re: PFAL
Review
Jerry, I don't know what level of crisis your marriage is in, but
if your approach mirrors your humble & honest self-evaluation in
the post, the best is yet to come.
I wish you the best and
will pray for your marriage. Thanks for all you have done |
Steve
Lortz
Had Fries with Gravy last
night
(1/27/01 1:29:32
pm)
|
Re: PFAL
Review
Jerry - I feel like I've really gotten to know you during the time
we've spent dialoguing, both here and on other boards. You've
demonstrated a great flexibility of mind and determination to do
what you see to be right, no matter what the consequences.
I
trust that God is working in you during these difficult times to
conform you even more closely to the image of His Son, and that you
are humble and persevering enough to work with, instead of against,
Him.
Thank you, Jerry, for the efforts you've put forth to
help people recover from the errors we were taught, and have taught.
My heart goes out to you. God bless you in the name of Jesus
Christ!
Love,
Steve |
Mark
Sanguinetti
Likes juice squeezed
not shaken
(1/28/01 9:58:47
am)
|
The gift of holy
spirit
I have been following some of this thread, but have not read
everything. Mostly my biblical study has been concentrated in my
study of 3 chapters, 1 Corinthians 12, 13 & 14. We know that
these 3 chapters were a major portion of the PFAL class so when this
forum reaches this part of this class, my many hours of biblical
study on these chapters will be very helpful.
For now I
would like to share with you the usages of holy spirit. Basically, I
believe VPW and the Way were wrong in teaching that the holy spirit
was either the giver or the gift. To the best of my understanding
there is no biblical usage of "holy spirit" as the giver. God is the
giver. Rather, all biblical usages of "holy spirit" are as the gift.
Of the many usages for "holy spirit" in the New Testament, if anyone
feels that a particular usage could be the giver and not the gift
then please make a post with the verse and perhaps we can discuss
it.
The usage of the word "Spirit" on the other hand is a
different story. This word has many biblical usages. To save a lot
of time on this I am simply going to list the 13 usages of spirit
from Bullinger's lexicon with a scripture.
1. God - John
4:24, (please notice that the context of this verse is worship via
the spirit)
2. Christ - 2 Cor. 3:17, 18
3. The gift of
holy spirit - Romans 5:5
4. The operations or manifestation
of - 1 Cor. 12:7
5. The New Nature - Romans 8:4
6. Man
- 1 Cor. 2:11
7. Character, as invisible, and manifested only
in one's actions - 2 Timothy 1:7
8. Other invisible
characteristics such as feelings or desires - Matthew
26:41
9. The whole person - Luke 1:47
10. Angels or
spirit beings - Hebrews 1:7, 14
11. Demon or evil spirits -
Luke 9:42
12. The resurrection body - 1Cor. 15:45
13.
a phantom - Matthew 14:26
Note: If you have a copy of
Bullinger's lexicon and you are following along with this book, I
skipped #10 because the scripture used did not have a usage of
spirit. Also 3 and 14 are both holy spirit. No reason to state this
twice. The believers that compiled this lexicon were very good, but
not perfect.
To Jerry:
Thanks for your efforts on
this post. I hope you are still following it. Of course, we know
that you don't have the time to spend on it that you used to. This
is O.K. You do what you need to do with a clear conscience.
Hopefully, others will fill the void. As I said I will help with 1
Corinthians 12, 13, & 14. Others can share the work on the other
parts of this PFAL review.
Edited by: Mark
Sanguinetti at: 1/28/01 9:05:40 am
|
flounder1
Polishes the silverware
(1/28/01 12:17:34 pm)
|
Re: PFAL
Review
Jerry,
I occasionally lurk to see what you are up to. My
heart goes out to you. I hope all works out.
Try to stay
positive by thinking good thoughts about yourself and those around
you.
flounder
|
Rafael
Olmeda
Polishes the
silverware
(1/29/01 3:44:57
am)
|
Re: PFAL
Review
Jerry,
My prayers are with you as well. I stopped writing
the BLue Book thread because I felt as though it was not my calling
to continue with it. Go rescue your marriage. Given a choice between
saving your marriage and rethinking PFAL, there is simply no debate.
Go in peace. God Bless.
Friends, let's not give up: if it's
not Jerry's calling to continue, perhaps it is yours.
Please
consider it. You know where to find us. |
Mark
Sanguinetti
Likes juice squeezed
not shaken
(1/29/01 10:07:47
pm)
|
The gift of holy
spirit
Usages of the Holy Spirit
There
are 94 usages of the phrase “holy spirit” in the bible most of which
are in the New Testament. I went through all of them today with the
help of some bible software that I have. Every usage of this phrase
refers to the workings of God in the individual lives of people. In
the Old Testament God placed his holy spirit upon believers who
obeyed and served Him. With the work of Jesus Christ, man was made a
permanent dwelling place or temple for the holy spirit to live. This
is referred to as the gift of “holy spirit” which God gives to those
that believe in his son Jesus Christ. Additionally, God energizes,
enables, and teaches man through this gift.
There are NO
usages of the holy spirit as the giver in the bible that I can see.
At best saying the giver of holy spirit is the Holy Spirit is poor
vocabulary. At worst it is confusing, although I can see where a
trinitarian might like this sort of reasoning.
Acts
2:38
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And
you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
New International
Version
Acts 10:45
45The circumcised believers who had
come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had
been poured out even on the Gentiles.
New International
Version
If there are any scriptural usages of “holy spirit”
which you do not see as referring to God at work in the lives of
individual believers then please list it on this forum and we can
discuss it.
|
JBarrax
Has had one cup of Java too many
(1/30/01 10:56:06 pm)
|
Re: PFAL
REVIEW
Just wanted to say Thank you to Rafael, Evan, Sunlight, Mark and
Steve. Your kindness and prayers are a great blessing. God's best to
you all.
Peace
Jerry |
Mark
Sanguinetti
Likes Ketchup on
Everything
(2/6/01 10:26:05
pm)
|
Study of 1
Corinthians Chapter 12
I have started a written column on Ex-Wayworld.com titled "Food For
Thought". On this I will be sharing some of my biblical studies that
I have written. I work hard on my written studies to make them both
biblically accurate and easily readable. My first article is a
fairly detailed study of 1 Corinthians chapter 12 as part of a
teaching series "Prophecy and Prophets from the New Testament". I
thought you all might be interested in this because 1 Corinthians 12
was one of the main chapters covered in the PFAL class.
My
teaching, in its current form, lost some of the paragraph formatting
when E-mailed, but Patrick (the Web master) will correct this after
I send him a written copy. If you click on the link to it below be
prepared to spend some time because it is over 11 pages with many
scriptures to consider. I think you will enjoy it and find it a good
read, however. Also all my thoughts and conclusions have the
scriptures clearly stated.
I must say this has been a good
discussion. I hope you guys continue this forum thread, but no
reason to knock yourselves out on this stuff. Take it at your own
pace. I will simply post links to teachings that I have written that
relate to this thread.
Regards,
Your Brother In
Christ,
Mark Sanguinetti
www.ex-wayworld.com/food_for_thought.htm
Edited by: Mark
Sanguinetti at: 2/6/01 9:59:49 pm
|
Steve
Lortz
Likes juice squeezed not
shaken
(2/7/01 11:17:12
am)
|
Where do we go
from here?
Deb and I have kicked around the idea of starting a thread called
"Son of PFAL Review" so that we can continue discussing these things
without throwing the thread Jerry has worked so hard on out of
whack.
I'd be happy to start that thread, but it may take
several weeks before I can clear enough time to do it properly. If
you folk have the patience, I'll start it up as soon as I can. If
another one of you can't wait, and wants to start it up, that would
be fine too.
I love you guys. My thoughts and prayers are
still with Jerry.
Steve |
sides2027
Sampled the Breakfast Special
(3/25/01 4:14:14 pm)
|
Re: battle of
senses and senses faith
YES MANY OF THESE BOOKS HAVE ERRORS BUT WAS WE NOT TOLD TO "STUDY
TO SEE WHAT RIGHT OR MAKE IT OUR OWN" ALL MAN ARE LIARS
POINTING
FINGERS GETS US NOWHERE LETS BUILD A BETTER PFAL NOT ATTACK THE ONE
WE HAVE
ROY WILLIAM PERRY III
|
