| Author |
Comment |
Sunlight8
Stayed until Midnight yesterday
(1/5/01 4:58:38 pm)
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Re: PFAL
REVIEW....more on judgment
I tell you what, now that I understand God and the adversary better
(especially God), and now that I understand God’s judgment and the
heart of it, volumes and volumes of scripture are making sense to me
in an amazing way. I am also seeing more and more the importance of
understanding God’s judgment (especially as relates to the sin and
death issue) in order to understand the redemption. If we don’t
understand what we were delivered from, how can we understand and
appreciate what we have?
Remember Job? Please read the
following verses very carefully and you will see the obvious, and
what has been right in front of our faces this whole
time.
Job 40:1-14
Shall he that contendeth with the
Almighty instruct him? He that reproveth God, let him answer
it.
Then Job answered the Lord, and said,
Behold, I am
vile: what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my
mouth.
Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice;
but I will proceed no further.
Then answered the Lord unto
Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Gird up thy loins now
like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto
me.
WILT THOU ALSO DISANNUL MY JUDGMENT? WILT THOU CONDEMN
ME, THAT THOU MAYEST BE RIGHTEOUS?
Hast thou an arm like God?
or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Deck thyself now
with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and
beauty.
Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath : and behold every
one that is proud, and abase him.
Look on every one that is
proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their
place.
Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces
in secret.
THEN will I also confess unto thee that thine own
right hand can save thee.
Job’s own hand saving him
relates to works. The whole argument between Job and his friends
rotated around God does what he does in relationship to man based on
his own works, which to a degree is true but the thinking is
backwards. I think it is pretty clear what happened to Job’s family
was an act of judgment. If you recall, God said Job was upright, He
never said Job’s family was. Perhaps his fear was based on
observation. Certainly, even as an upright man his perception of God
was not proper. Previous to this, God spends a whole chapter letting
Job know there is a heck of a lot he doesn’t understand, and a heck
of a lot he can’t do, and he is not in control of everything,
especially God.
No doubt, the judgment is harsh. I have
heard the speculation that Job is a fictional account. Perhaps it
is. On the other hand, we really don’t have any details about Job’s
family.
We do have what to me is a peculiar discourse between
God and Satan. The only explanation that makes sense to me at the
moment is the emphasis is that Satan cannot do anything without
God’s permission and he can’t go any farther than God lets him go.
God is GOD and He is in charge at all times. There is the hedge of
protection. Perhaps the idiom of permission has a degree of truth,
not from the perspective that God has no choice, but as an act of
judgment. I dunno. Perhaps when I finish working this subject I will
understand better.
But to continue. VP taught Job got the
deliverance when he prayed for his friends. I disagree. God reproved
him and Job responded. Funny how VP ignored that
part.
Chapter 42:5
I (Job) have heard of thee by the
hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
A good
description of how I’ve been feeling lately….At this point, Job
fully gets it.
Verse six: Wherefore I abhor myself, and
repent in dust and ashes.
Verse seven: And it was so (this
expression denotes the beginning of the deliverance), that after the
Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the
Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two
friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my
servant Job hath.
Verse eight: Therefore take unto you now
seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer
up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray
for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your
folly, in that ye have not spoken of ME the thing which is right,
like my servant Job.
Once Job finally saw God, understood Who
He is, as well His justice, where his own error in thinking was, he
received the deliverance.
The real point of the book of Job
on the whole is to communicate that God is in charge, and the
importance of recognizing that God is GOD. Our actions don’t
determine what He does. He does what He does because He is righteous
and just, and fully able to exhibit and carry out His power in ways
we can’t possibly understand. Once we recognize this, we have a
proper internal disposition toward Him, and our acts of obedience
will be in the right perspective given with a proper heart. That is
what God wants, not conditional or outward giving. He doesn’t serve
us. We serve Him.
VP missed the point entirely, and taught
the precise opposite of what the book of Job is trying to
teach.
Guess what? Yesterday, one of my darn cats bit my
Bible. There are three tooth holes all the way through the leather.
I would consider judgment if I knew which one did it….
Debbie Mason
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JBarrax
Likes the eggs Scrambled and runny
(1/6/01 8:00:53 pm)
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Dominion
Hey Sunlight, Strong Coffee you two are onto something. That
statement of the Devil in Luke contradicts much of the testimony of
the Old Testament. Like Daniel chapter 4, for instance
Daniel 4:17, 25-25
This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the
word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that
the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to
whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of
men.
24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the
decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:
25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling
shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to
eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven,
and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the
most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever
he will.
So according to Daniel, the kingdoms of men are under
the authority of God, not Lucifer. What we have to deal with now are
the verses that refer to Lucifer as a prince and a god.
Ezekiel 28:2
Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus,
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou
hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the
seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart
as the heart of God:
Daniel 10:13 & 20
13 But the
prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days:
but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I
remained there with the kings of Persia.
20 Then said he,
Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to
fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the
prince of Grecia shall come.
John 12:31&14:30
31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this
world be cast out.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with
you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in
me.We must also keep in mind that II Corinthians
4:4 refers to Satan as "the god of this world." So what does the
Word mean when it calls the Devil a prince and the god of this
world? And how does that fit with the verses which declare that the
kingdoms of the world are ruled by God and that the kings thereof
rule only with his consent?
Hmmmmmmm.
Peace
Jerry
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StrongCoffee
Grease Spot Cafe Discoverer
(1/6/01 9:47:55 pm)
|
Re:
Dominion
Jerry, Debbie, and all,
Interesting that you're quoting from
Daniel. I was reading that passage this morning as part of another
study (for a class at my church -- church!!! Man, I have come a long
way since PFAL!) and saw the same thing.
Well, I haven't
figured out how he can be the "prince of the power of the air"
without having some dominion over the world. But I've got a couple
of ideas:
1. Satan does have
dominion over the world, but God frequently steps in to override his
stewardship.
God's ultimately in
charge of everything and has the right to assert his ultimate
authority whenever he wants to. This, of course, puts us right back
where we were, trying to figure out where and when Satan obtained
this authority.
2. Satan has no
legitimate authority, but has asserted and exercised authority
anyway. He has stolen it, in other words.
He's doing all sorts of things
he has no authority or right to do. He's a thief, a liar, and a
murderer; why not a usurper, too?
This is just speculation,
of course. I have nothing scriptural to back up either possibility,
and I don't know if either one will pan out.
By the way,
(oops, sorry) I've been comparing Adam, Eve and the serpent from
Genesis 3 with the temptations of Christ in Matthew 4 and Luke 4.
Since Christ is referred to as "the last Adam" (in Romans and II
Corinthians, if memory serves), I think that these are parallel
situations, with Satan trying to trick Jesus into screwing things
up, just as he worked it with Adam and Eve. Fortunately for all of
us, it didn't work.
I may be posting something in the Sidebar
about that in a few days.
Debbie, you asked how I like my
coffee. <grin> Without cream or sugar, and very strong. My
wife says it's exceptionally vile and worries about what it's doing
to my insides.
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Sunlight8
Likes Ketchup on Everything
(1/7/01 1:20:09 am)
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Re: PFAL
REVIEW
I had this really long post all written, however I believe the
following verses say it all.
Psalm 24:1-3
The
earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they
that dwell therein.
For he hath founded it upon the seas, and
established it upon the floods.
Who shall ascend into the
hill of the Lord? Or who shall stand in his holy
place?
Anything pertaining to us or the adversary has to
fit in this framework.
To me, the worst part about TWI is the
way they muddied the waters concerning God and the adversary with
significant overlap between the two. God is God. The adversary is
the adversary. The Bible defines the boundaries and characteristics.
The earth and the fullness thereof belong to God. He is in charge of
it. He has the dominion. And, the people thereon belong to Him. Who
will challenge this? No one. Not even the adversary.
Peace
also,
Deb
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Sunlight8
Likes Ketchup on Everything
(1/7/01 3:46:07 pm)
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Re: PFAL
REVIEW
While we are here, I figured I may as well expose some more of them
thar farce doctrin’ concerning the adversary.
Returning to
Job….What kindled God’s wrath concerning Job’s friends was not how
they treated him but the fact that they didn’t speak what was right
concerning Him (contrary to what was taught). Owing to the fact that
TWI has confused God with the adversary in doctrine, for me it has
become a real priority to re-examine these things.
TWI
taught the Devil is direct and Satan is indirect. Here’s one example
that is in conflict with that idea.
Ephesians 6:11
Put
on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the
wiles of the devil.
Wiles are indirect. At least I really
hope so.
TWI also taught doctrinal error on this
verse…
Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the
power (exousia) of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom
of his dear Son.
It was taught that the adversary can usurp
our lives if we let him based on this verse. Yet if you read it, it
is making a statement of fact that we are out of the exousia of
darkness. True or false, yes or no? We are in the kingdom of Jesus
Christ and he is the head and authority over it. We can’t relinquish
or dilute our position as citizens in Jesus’ kingdom. The verse
isn’t discussing practical matters, but relaying doctrinal truth.
If memory serves they also taught Lucifer was second in
command next to God. If they didn’t, never mind and as I was.
Regardless, the Bible never makes this statement. He was the morning
star and a covering cherub. He said he would become like the most
high God. Just because he said it, doesn’t mean he had an iceberg’s
chance of doing so. And clearly he wasn’t successful. Just because
Jesus sits at the right hand of God as the morning star, doesn’t
mean Lucifer ever did.
Revelation 2:26-28
And he that
overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give
power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of
iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shiver:
even as I received of my Father.
And I will give him the
morning star.
Having or being the morning star doesn’t
quite equate to what TWI taught.
A favorite TWI phrase is “as
the god of this world he…..”
II Corinthians 4:4
In
whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which
believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is
the image of God, should shine unto them.
Most of the time
this word for world is not translated “world”, but “ever.” It’s
literal meaning is age. This is the only occurrence I found of this
phrase. The word for “god” is theos. ALL other occurrences where it
is not referring to God or Jesus Christ (in the sense of aspects of
his position) refer to false gods i.e. idolatry. Even if we wanted
to say this verse refers to the adversary, what are we going to base
it on? People’s minds do get blinded by idolatry. If we do go with
it referring to the adversary, then the specific attribute given is
blinding the minds, no real reason to add more.
I am
starting learn not to take anything at all for granted…..
And
Strong Coffee, I do take cream and sugar with espresso, other wise
it tastes like what I would imagine light fluid
would...
Deb
Edited by: Sunlight8
at: 1/7/01 7:51:32 pm
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JBarrax
Likes the eggs Scrambled and runny
(1/8/01 4:57:19 pm)
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god of this
world
the word "world" is, I think, the Greek word aion, meaning
"age". [can't look it up at the moment, I'm in a hotel room]. From
my study of "administrations", I believe the proper understanding of
this word is the timespan of the second heaven and
earth.
Although this may be the only occurrence of the
phrase "god of this world", the word aion is translated
"world" elsewhere. If memory serves, the verse about Demas forsaking
Paul, "having loved this present world" uses "world" for
aion.
If we accept that the Devil is the god of
this age, we still have to ascertain how and when he became such, and
how that relates to the aforementioned verses attributing to God the
rule of the world's kingdoms
Peace
Jerry
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chastened
Likes juice squeezed not shaken
(1/9/01 1:45:54 am)
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comment
I have been following these discussions somewhat, and I have
enjoyed reading, kinda from a distance.
I just had a comment,
opinion, whatever, regarding the verse speaking of the god this
world, and the questions of how Satan would have this authority(
assuming that this verse is talking about Satan)
I don't
believe that the True God had or has given him authority, but that
by Satan's wiles and schemes, people were darkened in their
understanding of the True God and have made him their own
god.
There is enmity against the True God ,in the dark hearts
of those who worship or love anything other than the Lord. The
"god-ship" status was from the people of this world, not assigned
authority from the Lord God. The people made him (Satan) god, those
Satan had captured, because the world knew not the True God, but
were at enmity against Him.
The bible clearly says over and
over in the OT/NT that there is ONE GOD and there is no other God
beside HIM. Only He ( the Lord Jesus) rules.
You could say, "
the god of this church" or "the god of India" or "the god of this
family", but the god would be of the people's making.
Just
some thoughts.
chastened
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StrongCoffee
Read Menu, Afraid to Order
(1/9/01 12:25:43 pm)
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Various
comments
Thoughts on several topics:
Jerry is correct that aion is the
word translated "world" in II Corinthians 4:4 and II Timothy
6:10.
I tend to agree with Chastened that Satan didn't obtain
any authority over the world from God. I'm calling this a
hypothesis, though, and I'm continuing to search for
information.
Ephesians 2:2 calls him "the prince of the power
of the air". I've been toying with the idea that this phrase, rather
than describing some legally conferred authority, is a sardonic
reference to his utter lack of legitimacy. Perhaps "power of the
air" is in the same tone as "inherit the wind".
So far I have
absolutely nothing to confirm this. I'm not ready to abandon the
idea yet, but there's nothing to support it. I'd be glad to hear
anyone else's comments.
What does it mean, biblically, to be
a "god"? I've read that the title "god" is often used of human
authority. The CES book One God and One Lord makes this claim. My
next study may be to look at all the uses of this word (this may
take a while), so that I can get a feel for what it means to be the
"god of this world".
Finally, something we haven't mentioned
before. John Juedes has an article
on the Messiah 7 website that demolishes one of VPW's principles of
interpretation, about pronouns being associated with the nearest
noun. This is true in English (kinda/sorta... the pronoun doesn't
have go with the closest noun), but absolutely wrong in
Greek.
Greek is an inflected language, which means that the
ending of the word contains information about case, number, and
gender.
Here's an example, taken from my old Latin textbook.
Latin is not Greek, but they are both inflected languages and work
the same way. (I haven't studied Greek and don't have a Greek
textbook around to take an example from, but Latin will illustrate
the principle.)
(Sorry about the irregular formatting. EZCodes
don't seem to operate on a rational and predictable
basis.)
Conjugation of the Latin: Laudare, to
praise
singular
plural
1st
person I
praise we
praise
2nd person you
praise you praise
3rd person
he/she/it praises they praise
1st person
laudo
laudamus
2nd person
laudas
laudatis
3rd person
laudat
laudant
The pronoun is built
in to the verb. Laudamus means "we
praise", for example. There is no
separate pronoun.
VPW's rule on
"following the pronouns" is a reasonable principle if you're reading
something written in English. In Greek, you don't follow the
pronouns, because they are not there.
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Ex10
Only likes sourdough
(1/9/01 12:29:23 pm)
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Re:
comment
Wonderful discussion here! I don't want to throw everyone off track
here, but in light of what has been talked over recently, the
traditional teaching regarding Rom. 13, (that "higher powers" really
do refer to governments and kingdoms of men) makes more
sense.
I've always been suspicious of the way's teaching of
Rom. 13. Just seemed to self-serving.
Enjoying the
dialogue,
Ex10
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JBarrax
Likes the eggs Scrambled and runny
(1/9/01 7:32:08 pm)
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dominion and
such
I have a few more thoughts I'd like to share on this topic, but I'd
like to request that we move this discussion to the sidebar, so the
PFAL Review can continue on its merry way into the land of the New
Birth and the truths and errors thereof
Peace
Jerry
|
Steve
Lortz
Grease Spot Cafe
Discoverer
(1/12/01 4:29:29
pm)
|
PFAL
Review
God bless you all in the name of Jesus Christ!
I've just
spent the past few hours reading this thread. I ran a calendar kiosk
in the mall over the holiday season, and it pretty much consumed my
time. Last night, the kiosk was carted off to storage, and today,
I'm catching back up.
WOW!!! What a thread!!! Thank you very
much, one and all! That's as detailed as I can get right now, but I
certainly am glad that Jerry and Sunlight8 have persevered through
so much dislocation. Maybe I'll have 2 cents worth to throw in soon.
Thanks again!
Love,
Steve
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Sunlight8
Likes Ketchup on Everything
(1/12/01 7:28:05 pm)
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Re: PFAL
REVIEW
Gee, Steve, thanks so much!! Your words mean a lot to me. You see,
I’ve read your posts before….(and even if I hadn’t…) I really look
forward to hearing more from you. Truly, I do. The more the merrier,
and the more brain cells collectively, the better.
Thanks for
taking the time to read the thread and post your
thoughts.
Deb
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JBarrax
Likes the eggs Scrambled and runny
(1/12/01 10:59:54 pm)
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Eternal
quickie
How's that for an oxymoron? lol
HI Steve, thanks for the kind
words. Like Sunlight8, I'm glad you're blessed by the thread.
Sunlight is one of the most appropriate usernames on the internet,
btw.
I'm studying the PFAL stuff on the New Birth, but I have to go
back and finish the faith thing. I cut it short in an effort to get
to the New Birth. I had put myself on a schedule that now seems to
be unworkable and unwise. I felt kind of bogged down and decided to
pick up the pace. Bad idea, very bad. So now I'm going to post a
brief comment on an outrageous statement about eternal life, then go
back and finish the faith topic. Then GOD WILLING, I'll hop over to
the sidebar thread and post something God laid on my heart a few
days ago about dominion and such. Then I'll slow down and try to get
back to doing this right.
At the beginning of Chapter Nineteen: Born Again of
Incorruptible Seed , on page 289, paragraph one, we
read;
The problem with many Biblical teachers is that they do not consider
the fact that one cannot have something until it is available, and
the New Birth was not available until Pentecost. No one, absolutely
no one, was born again until the day of Pentecost. Everybody until
that time was just body and soul, without eternal life.
Here we see another outgrowth of the wrong dividing of
the Word regarding body, soul, and spirit. Just as he erroneously
reasoned that man is born dead in trespasses and sins because they
have no spirit, Dr. Wierwille here stated that no one who lived
before Pentecost had eternal life. To say that they could not have
been born again is one thing. But to say that they could not receive
eternal life is absurd contradiction of the
Scriptures.
Jesus offered eternal life to the people of
Israel.
Matthew 19:16 & 17
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what
good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And
he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but
one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the
commandments.
Eternal life was available under the Law.
Psalms 21:1-4
1 The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy
salvation how greatly shall he rejoice!
2 Thou hast given
him his heart's desire, and hast not withholden the request of his
lips. Selah.
3 For thou preventest him with the blessings of
goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head.
4
He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days
for ever and ever.
David said his flesh would rest in hope because God
would not leave his soul in hell. Job said that in his flesh he
would see God. These saints of the Old Testament looked forward to
the resurrection of the just and eternal life. Likewise the people
of Israel had eternal life available by believing on Christ and
walking according to God's commandments. Romans chapter two says
that even the Gentiles who lived during the time of the Law will
have eternal life available to them based on their works and
hearts.
Romans 2:1-11
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art
that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest
thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But
we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against
them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O
man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same,
that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest
thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering;
not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up
unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the
righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man
according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance
in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal
life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey
the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth
evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But
glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew
first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect
of persons with God.
Both Jews and Gentiles will be judged according to
their works and their hearts. These are people who lived before
Pentecost whom God will judge. To them who by patient continuance in
well doing seek for glory, honour and immortality, God will give
eternal life.
And when Jesus returns in judgment, after
the Church of the Body has been gathered, eternal life will be
available to the nations.
Matthew 25:31-34, 46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy
angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he
shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his
sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his
right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the
King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world:
46 And these shall go away into everlasting
punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
So the point is, eternal life has always been
available. What we have is more, but we shouldn't confuse holy
spirit and incorruptible see with eternal life.
Peace
Jerry
|
JBarrax
Likes the eggs Scrambled and runny
(1/13/01 3:30:11 am)
|
Bible Kinds of
Faith
The major thrust of Dr. Wierwille's wrong dividing of faith and
believing is his interpretation of Galatians 3:23.
Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut
up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that
we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is
come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
VP interpreted this passage to mean that faith was
something spiritual that had not existed before Pentecost. This is
not in keeping with the context. If any of you have ever tried to
read through the rest of the chapter and assign a specific PFAL
usage to each occurrence of pistis, you may know what I mean.
The context is about the difference between keeping the commandments
of the Mosaic law and being justified by faith; by believing in the
finished work of Christ. The "faith of Jesus Christ" is simply
believing in the redeeming value of Christ's work on our behalf.
There is a figure of speech involved in verse 23 that bears this
out, but before we get into the nitty gritty details, let's take a
look at the context.
Galatians 3:6-12
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him
for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are
of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the
scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through
faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee
shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of
faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as
are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written,
Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are
written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no
man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for,
The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of
faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Read verses 6 and 7 carefully. Abraham believed God.
Likewise we which are of pistis, faith, are the children of
Abraham. There is an unmistakable connection made here in the
Scripture between Abraham's faith and ours. The same connection is
made in verse 8. The scripture seeing that "God would justify the
heathen through faith" preached before the gospel to Abraham. I
don't have time to get into it here, but the word "gospel" figures
prominently in understanding the mystery and justification. It is
the opposite of the works of the law. Rather than relying on our
works, we simply believe the gospel and are justified thereby.
"So then they that are of faith are blessed with faithful
Abraham." Here again faith is connected with Abraham. So to teach
that we have faith but Abraham had something less is in
contradiction to the context of Galatians.
So since Abraham had faith, why does Galatians 3:22 say "before
faith came..."? Remember, the Word is to be taken literally whenever
and wherever possible. But when the Scripture fails to be true to
fact; or, I might add, when it is obviously at odds with itself, it
may be a figure of speech. Verse 22 uses the figure metonymy,
putting faith for that on which it is based; Jesus Christ. It
literally means, "Before Christ came, we were kept under the
law."
Faith has always been here. Abraham had faith. Moses and
David also had faith. But they did not have the benefit of the
redemptive work of Christ, so Abraham simply believed God's promise
of the redemption yet to come, while his offspring had to live under
the Law until the promise was fulfilled. Galatians 2:16 makes it
quite plain.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus
Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and
not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no
flesh be justified. Pretty simple isn't it? The faith of
Jesus Christ is believing in Jesus Christ. Before Christ came, we
couldn't believe in him and receive the fulness of what he would
bring to mankind. Now that we can, it is folly to look backward to
the provisional standards of the Law that were only designed to
preserve Israel until Christ could come and redeem mankind fully and
finally.
We are to have faith in Christ's redemptive work on
our behalf. Our faith is not to be placed in our works, nor in our
believing, but in Jesus Christ. We learn of Christ through
the gospel. So it is the faith of the gospel that brings us
justification, righteousness, redemption; all of the blessings of
Sonship.
Romans 1:15-17
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel
to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the
gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every
one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from
faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Some of you may remember Chris Geer's 1990 "Bible
Kinds of Faith" teaching. He interpreted this verse in a manner I
fought with then, but, in light of a clearer understanding of the
errors I had accepted as true, I think he was right. The word
"faith" is used here figuratively as well. The context is about the
gospel, the preached Word. The gospel is the power of God unto
salvation. For therein: in the gospel, the preached Word, is the
righteousness of God revealed; from, [ek, out from within]
the gospel to [eis unto] faith. In other words, The preaching
of the gospel reveals the righteousness of God, which is received,
not by the works of the law, but simply by believing the gospel. For
the just, the righteous, shall live by faith.
With that in
mind, let's look at some of the other statements in PFAL about
faith. On page 277 we read
The Household of Faith
Galatians 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us
do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household
of faith.
Who makes up the household of faith? Those who
have been given the faith of Jesus Christ because they believed
The household of faith is simply those who have
believed in Jesus Christ and are therefore of the same body, the
Church of Christ. On page 278, we read;
The Manifestation of Faith
There are other types of faith in the Bible besides household
or family faith. Once we have become members of the household of
faith, we then can operate the manifestation of faith {believing) so
that we can live with the power of God. The manifestation of faith
(believing) is special renewed mind believing according to the
revelation manifestations...
Note that each reference
to the manifestation of faith is changed by parentheses to the
manifestation of believing. Jesus Christ manifested "believing", as
did Elijah, who believed the revelation of God that it would not
rain until He said so. This was obviously "before faith came", so in
an effort to avoid contradicting himself, VP called it the
manifestation of believing, not the manifestation of faith.
But we still have an inherent contradiction, because he
defined believing as an action of the human mind based on the five
senses. But he defines the manifestation of "believing" as special
renewed mind believing based on the revelation
manifestations; word of wisdom, word of knowledge and discerning
of spirits. Receiving revelation and walking by the senses are two
different things; diametrically opposed to each other in fact. If
believing is based on the five senses, one cannot possibly respond
to revelation with the manifestation of "believing". Here again we
see that one error produces another. The erroneous distinction
between faith and believing causes a contradictory teaching on the
manifestation of faith. The answer is simple. Since faith and
believing are the same thing, the manifestation of believing is the
manifestation of faith. We don't need to insert parentheses and say
"believing " where the Bible says faith. The distinction is
unnecessary, erroneous and confusing.
Fruit of the Spirit
Galatians discloses another type of faith and that is faith as a
fruit of the spirit. Good fruit comes from good cultivation.
To cultivate, one uses good fertilizer or natural plant food.
Galatians 5 tells about our personal, spiritual gardens.
Galatians 5:22, 23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness,
temperance: against such there is no law.
Fruit is not "another type of faith". What type is
it? How is it different from believing, how is it different from
"the faith of Jesus Christ?" If one is going to say this is a
different type of faith, one should describe the differences. Wierwille
never did. There is no difference between the faith in
Galatians 5:22 and the faith in Galatians 2:16. Faith is faith. What
Galatians 5:22 is saying is lost by its having been pulled out of
context. The context is the difference in the results of walking by
the flesh, which in the context of Galatians is legalism, and
walking by the spirit, which in the context of Galatians is
believing in Christ's finished work as our complete redemption and
justification.
Galatians 5:13-23
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use
not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one
another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even
in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if
ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed
one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and
ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh
lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and
these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the
things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit,
ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh
are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance,
emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings,
murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell
you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do
such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the
fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness,
goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such
there is no law.
The fruit of the spirit is the natural result of
walking by the spirit, just as adultery, fornication, uncleanness
and lasciviousness are the result of walking by the flesh. These
don't sound like the consequences of legalism do they? It is one of
the paradoxes of life. Legalism tends to magnify sin and exacerbate
the very tendencies it tries to suppress. That's what Romans chapter
seven is all about; the tendency of the law to magnify the
weaknesses of the flesh. Galatians tells us that the way to avoid
fulfilling the lusts of the flesh is not by making rules and living
under the Law, but by walking by the Spirit.
Walking by the
spirit is not driven by concern for upholding this rule and that,
but by fervent love for one's brethren and an abiding faith in the
power and love of God. When we walk this way our lives will abound
with love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
meekness, and temperance, which cannot be produced by adherence to
law.
Various Types of Faith
The various types of faith are: 1) believing, 2) faith of Jesus
Christ, 3) household faith, 4) manifestation of faith (believing),
5) fruit of the Spirit faith. We must be alert to the various usages
of this word if we are going to rightly divide the Word of Truth.
This paragraph from page 280 summarizes Dr.
Wierwille's dividing of the Biblical usages of faith. I believe
there are only two at most. There is faith, which is accepting and
trusting God's Word, and there is the manifestation of faith, which
is an evidence of the presence of holy spirit. A person who is
manifesting faith certainly has faith, but not everyone who has
faith in God is manifesting holy spirit. The faith of Jesus Christ
is simply believing in Christ as our atonement, our redeemer, our
righteousness. The household of faith is simply an adjectival phrase
used to describe the Church; those who have believed the gospel.
And, as I said above, faith is a fruit of walking by the spirit, but
that faith which is fruit of the spirit is not "a different type of
faith."
Faith is used in so many ways and phrases in the New Testament
because everything we are begins in faith when we hear and believe
the gospel, continues in faith as we grow in grace and wisdom, and
produces more faith as we walk by the spirit, eschewing
self-reliance and legalism in favor of the everpresent power and
sustenance of the love of God and the support and lordship of Jesus
Christ.. Faith is how we start, faith is what we do, faith is who we
are, faith is how we live; faith in the Word of God our Father and
His Son Jesus Christ Our Lord.
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Ex10
Most Likely to Post in ME ME ME
(1/13/01 1:55:46 pm)
|
Re: Bible Kinds
of Faith
Wow, Jerry, excellent synopsis on faith!!
As I was reading
over your posts, I thought about how Martin Luther's insight on the
verses in Romans 1:15-17 sparked his rebellion against the legalism
of the Roman Catholic Church, and touched off an entire
"Reformation."
At the same time, I think VPW's error and
misplaced emphasis on "believing" instead of "faith" really
escalated the way's downward spiral into legalism.
Thanks,
Jerry.
Edited by: Ex10
at: 1/13/01 12:58:18 pm
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Rafael
Olmeda
Polishes the
silverware
(1/13/01 8:42:59
pm)
|
Re: Bible Kinds
of Faith
Jerry,
That was nothing short of outstanding.
Rafael
|
JBarrax
Needs glasses -- Thinks the cook is
cute
(1/13/01 9:22:37
pm)
|
blushing
Gee, thanks Raf. God bless you!
Jerry
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Sunlight8
Polishes the silverware
(1/14/01 10:38:52 am)
|
Re: Faith
I agree with Rafael, Jere. Hope you don't get tired of hearing it.
That post is one I will read many times over.
Deb
|
Sunlight8
Polishes the silverware
(1/15/01 1:37:04 pm)
|
The New Birth:
An introduction
In case I am startling anyone by beginning the new birth posts, I
wanted to let you know it won’t be a surprise to Jerry. We have been
sharing ideas and research on a daily basis for a while now. So much
so, it has been difficult to sometimes to post only my own ideas.
That is because our ideas build on each other, although there are
times when we post strictly our own research and ideas, Jerry more
so than I. This one is mine though…
The first recorded
instance of the new birth is in Acts chapter two. There are a lot of
things laid out in this section that go way beyond Romans 10:9-10.
This is certainly a part, but only a part. Acts two gives us the
only example of the new birth process, and lays out in detail what
is involved. That makes it singularly unique and important.
Acts chapter two opens with Pentacost, when the twelve
apostles spoke in tongues.
Acts 2:11
Cretes and
Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works
of God.
This event got peoples’ attention, which is what it
was designed to do. Peter then began to teach from the Old Testament
explaining who Jesus Christ was, that God had raised him from the
dead, and was now exalted. The concluding verses teach the new
birth.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent,
and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the
remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy
Ghost.
Repent is the Greek word metanoeo. Strong’s gives “to
think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider.” It is used of
attitudes or attitudes in association with actions, and with the
idea of change. Since the previous verse states they were pricked in
their hearts and asking what to do, the use has to be attitudes with
respect to actions. Their previous was to crucify Jesus based on
their attitude that he was not the messiah. Peter had taught them
from the Word that he was the messiah and how he is Lord. Now they
are to repent of this specific past action and do the rest of what
Peter says to do.
I used to think it was rather blunt of
Peter to bring up in his teaching the fact that they had crucified
Jesus, and I wondered why he did it. Why are you saying something
that would put them in condemnation, Peter? I also wondered what he
meant by repent. I see now he was telling them specifically what
they needed for their hearts so that they could get born again. It
was honest and loving and it was giving them the opportunity to
correct their error so that they could accept the forgiveness and
mercy God was extending to them.
Also, think about this. Did
God forgive them for something big? I think He did. I don't see how
they could have done a worse thing. They knew that too. They knew
God did forgive them. These are the people the new birth was made
available to first, after Pentacost. Blows me away. I think His
heart is big enough to deal with the things we do...
One of
the most interesting things to me about this verse is it states to
be baptized and then you SHALL (future) receive the gift of holy
spirit. That means the baptism here is separate from receiving holy
spirit.
Jerry has done extensive research on water baptism
and determined it did in fact continue through Acts chapter ten.
This particular Greek word is never used in connection with holy
spirit. It is used concerning water and in a figurative
way.
I Pet. 3:21
The like figure whereunto even
baptism doth also now save us, (not the putting away of the filth of
the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the
resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Acts 19:4
Then said
Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying
unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come
after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Verse 5:
When
they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord
Jesus.
These verses make clear the water wasn’t the point of
it. So is our Acts verse referring to water? Dunno. But if it is,
the point of it concerns the heart, and clearly they carried out the
heart of it, whether they used water or not. The whole teaching of
water out spirit in, ignores this truth because it ignores what was
meant by it. Returning to our verse…
Acts 2:38
.
Then
Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in
the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
What I’ve covered so far,
completes the process of what they were to do. They had fulfilled
the conditions to get born again and about three thousand souls got
born again that day. The purpose was to receive remission
(forgiveness) of sins and then receive the gift of holy spirit. The
wording indicates to me the forgiveness occurs first.
Verse
39:
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to
all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall
call.
Peter had taught them about this promise. This word
"call" is used of calling individuals and groups, in the sense of a
summons. How does God call? The way we saw it demonstrated here was
by an act of God, and by the written and spoken Word. I should think
an act of God was involved in our lives as well, just to get the
necessary information in front of us so we could get born again.
Verse 40:
And with many other words did he testify
and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward
generation.
The Greek word for save is sozo. Literally it is
to make safe. Strong’s: “to save, i.e. deliver or protect (lit. or
fig.): heal preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole." Again,
they were to take the action. The first thing they did to make
themselves safe respond to the call of God and obey from the heart
the direction they were given. I have heard it taught that we are to
make ourselves whole (sozo) as a renewed mind process. Yet this
context doesn’t support that for this particular verse. The
remainder of what they were to do to make themselves safe would be
more like the following.
Proverbs 3:5-8:
Trust in the
Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own
understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall
direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the
Lord, and depart from evil.
It shall be health to thy navel,
and marrow to thy bones.
We make ourselves safe and
receive health as we trust God and demonstrate our trust with
obedience. It centers on our recognition of the truth and the
decisions we make. That is our job. God’s job is He will direct our
paths.
Deb
Edited by: Sunlight8
at: 1/15/01 5:19:35 pm
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Sunlight8
Polishes the silverware
(1/15/01 10:18:42 pm)
|
New Birth
Correction: Jerry points out the word for baptism is connected with
holy spirit. I got my Greek words mixed up...
Deb
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