| Author |
Comment |
Steve
Lortz
Hasn't gotten sick once
from the food
(1/24/01 1:32:48
pm)
|
PFAL
Review
This thread just keeps getting better! Now, I'm having to
reconsider things that I just finished reconsidering (regarding the
"born" and "seed" phrases). It's great!
Love,
Steve
|
Sunlight8
Likes the eggs Scrambled and runny
(1/24/01 3:25:26 pm)
|
Re: PFAL
REVIEW
Just to complete the thought process….
If we say the spirit
of life is received upon physical birth, that parallels nicely with
receiving holy spirit upon getting born again.
If we were to
refer to holy spirit as seed, and say that is what is being
discussed in I Peter, then we have to say eternal life and holy
spirit are one and the same. In which case, when we get to I Cor.
15, we are going to put it on at some future date. Does that make
sense? No. The biggest problem is both I Peter and I Cor. 15 are
speaking of physical immortality, and the same Greek words are used.
When Peter speaks of born again it is meaning something
different than born again of spirit. I know this because is says
“For all flesh…” It is speaking of a physical rebirth. It parallels
the spiritual born again which is a spiritual rebirth. Neither are a
conception and they are not identical. God will not re-conceive us
when our bodies change or are resurrected.
If what I’ve said
here is true, (and I am thinking out loud so this could be subject
to revision), then the born of the wrong seed idea is probably bogus
for the simple reason it is supposed to be the adversary’s
counterpart.
Guess what we’re going to have to look at next?
Eternal life.
Deb
Edited by: Sunlight8
at: 1/24/01 6:08:49 pm
|
evanpyle
Most Likely to Post in ME ME ME
(1/24/01 4:06:14 pm)
|
Re: PFAL
REVIEW
Deb, born of the wrong seed is a bogus concept with no definitive
biblical support. Besides, it's just creepy!
In waythink, the
doctrine is derived anecdotally from other invented doctrines which
are supposedly well-supported...which they are not.
There are
a number of references that refer to people being 'of your father,
the devil', 'children of disobedience', etc. There are several
possible (and mainstream common) interpretations that work for these
passages: One is that, in the natural, we are all children of the
devil, children of disobedience...we are by nature. Another is that
(in the case of John 6) Jesus was talking to the demon spirits in
those Pharisees...
oh well.
|
evanpyle
Most Likely to Post in ME ME ME
(1/24/01 4:15:17 pm)
|
Re: PFAL
REVIEW
Deb, if I may challenge a notion (that you probably don't hold)
reflected in some common unique-to-the-way terminology. "Gift of
holy spirit" is what I'm thinking can be an 800 lb. gorilla that's
difficult to see around. That unique terminology was based upon
unique dogma based upon Wierwillite assumptions based
upon.......
you get the picture.
I have some ideas but
am not yet ready to post 'em. But i will say that obtaining
immortality seems to me the best description of what happens to the
saved person. I just know that the whole picture is more direct and
simple than the convoluted tower of (ersatz) logic built in Piffle.
But that simple truth gets difficult for me to see because there's
this King Kong standing right in front of me...
|
Sunlight8
Likes the eggs Scrambled and runny
(1/24/01 4:41:08 pm)
|
Re: PFAL
REVIEW
Hi Evan,
Know what you mean by an 800lb gorilla. Boy do I
ever. I’ve had to knock him out of my way numerous times. Not always
easy….sometimes takes a monumental amount of effort. So big, you
know.
I basically believe wrong seed can’t be right at this
point. Is there a verse that documents wrong seed? No. Of your
father is not documentation. All children of disobedience? In a
sense yes. The disagreement I would have would be:
Ephesians
2:2-3
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course
of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, and
spirit that now worketh in the children of
disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation
(behavior) in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the
desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the
children of wrath, even as others.
This says our behavior
was like them, doesn’t say we were them. The opposite of
disobedience is obedience. Verse two associates spirit with the
disobedience that works in them. So…..tentatively I am thinking that
what we used to think of as wrong seed is certain people who have an
allegiance in the form of obedience to the adversary that by free
will are not going to change.
Gift of holy spirit. This does
really need to be looked at. I already know I don’t quite agree with
way-think but not ready to say what I do think as well, not
completely sure yet.
Sometimes I get very frustrated with
the sheer volume and detail of what needs to be redone. Maybe
together we can accomplish the task. At least we are making
progress.
Deb
|
Steve
Lortz
Hasn't gotten sick once
from the food
(1/24/01 8:05:40
pm)
|
the gift of holy
spirit
Deb - You posted, "Gift of holy spirit. This does really need to be
looked at... Sometimes I get very frustrated with the sheer volume
and detail of what needs to be redone."
Amen, and
amen!
Here are a few of my not necessarily
well-thought-through considerations regarding holy spirit (which I
may or may not start capitalizing before this post is over, I'll
decide that later).
The impression that I came away from PFAL
with was that each one of us received his own individual gift of
holy spirit. Each of these spirits was a complete little package
that replaced the spirit the person would have had if Adam hadn't
sinned. My gift of holy spirit was Christ's eyes behind my eyes,
Christ's hands behind my hands, etc., etc. "Complete, complete,
complete in him, I am complete in him!" Or was it "completely in
*me*!?! I just remember VPW saying "completely completely
complete".
I don't think anybody taught it, but I remember
wondering if the holy spirit I received was like a little baby (it's
complete, it's all there, but it has some growing to do), and that
speaking in tongues might be the means to bring it to maturity (I
Corinthians 14:4a "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth
himself...").
The idea that each one of us gets a little,
individual seed when we receive holy spirit seems to me to
contradict at least a couple of scriptures, I Corinthians 12:13 and
Ephesians 4:4 come to mind:
I Corinthians 12:13 "For by
one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or
Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to
drink into one Spirit."
Ephesians 4:4 "There is one body, and
one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your
calling."
The New Testament wasn't written in a vacuum.
There was a whole body of Jewish and non-canonical Christian
writings that extended for many decades both before and after the
composition of the books of the New Testament. The authors of these
writings were all wrestling with the problem of how to talk about
the relation of a transcendant God with His finite creation. In
order to talk about an infinite God in finite terms, they used a
concept they called "emanations", or aspects of the transcendant God
which are made finite in some way. One emanation was the "spirit of
God", another was the "word of God", yet a third was the "wisdom of
God". If you want to learn more about this subject, find a copy of
"Christology in the Making" by James D.G. Dunn.
The "spirit
of God" was an emanation which emphasized the power of the
transcendant God in relation to His creation.
I am presently
inclined to believe (not without much scriptural back up, as yet)
that the gift of holy spirit first poured out on the day of
Pentecost was the power of God heterodyned with the human
personality of Jesus Christ. I Corinthians 8:6 (that verse is
another lesson in itself), is one of the reasons, I'm thinking along
these lines. As such, there is only one Spirit (I decided to
capitalize it for awhile, I might change my mind again). When we
receive the gift of Holy Spirit, each one of us receives a personal
connection to God through Jesus Christ, and to each other, also
through Jesus Christ.
Maybe these thoughts suggest some
alternatives to the 800 pound gorilla.
Love,
Steve |
Sunlight8
Likes the eggs Scrambled and runny
(1/24/01 8:22:44 pm)
|
Re: the gift of
holy spirit
Hi Steve
This is an unusual day for me in that I don't
normally pay a lot of attention to this thread, but check in every
few days.
I know precisely what you're saying, I have been
over the same ground. One spirit, one baptism, etc.
If it's
one spirit, how can it be many? I dunno. We need to go over this
quite carefully.
So what do you propose we do with this
800lb. gorilla? I think we need a plan...carefully constructed. Will
alternative ideas do it? I dunno. The Christ in me is big I
understand, but physically I'm not a lot over 100 lbs.
Thanks
for your thoughts, Steve.
Deb
Edited by: Sunlight8
at: 1/25/01 9:54:59 am
|
Steve
Lortz
Knows the Waitress's
name
(1/24/01 10:16:55
pm)
|
800 pound
gorilla
The first thing we've got to do Deb, is get a whole big bunch of
bananas....
I'm about fried on this for one day,
too.
I love you all,
Steve |
Steve
Lortz
Had Fries with Gravy last
night
(1/24/01 10:18:54
pm)
|
Another
plan
Maybe we could get some help from the Taco Bell
chihuahua!
Love, again,
Steve |
JBarrax
Only likes sourdough
(1/25/01 10:40:33 am)
|
Re: Holy spirit
and "800lb gorillas"
Good morning all, and God bless!
I am dealing with some
pressing personal matters and may not be able to participate as
actively as I have for a while. But I have been trying to keep up
with what's posted here and would like to offer a few quick
observations:
Rafael brought up a very good question
about the possibility of the incorruptible seed being the Word of
God. I think Deb's point about the word "seed" being translated
"sowing" is a good and valid one that reinforces Rafael's question.
The translation "sowing" and the following reference to grass calls
to mind Jesus' parable of the seed and the sower which describes the
process of preaching the gospel. So the main point of I Peter 1:23
then seems to be that we are born again by receiving the gospel; a
statement that has much support in the Church epistles. [Romans
1:15-17, 10:14-17, I Corinthians 1:17-21, and Ephesians 3:6]
However, I also think Deb's comment about the receiving
of holy spirit being part of that ‘new birth' is valid and shouldn't
be so quickly discarded as an 800 lb gorilla. As she said, Jesus
spoke to Nicodemus about being born again. The passage that follows
in John's gospel also tells of Jesus speaking of similar issues to
the Samaritan woman.
John 3:3-8
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say
unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of
God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when
he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and
be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter
into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh
is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:
so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 4:10-14
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the
gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink;
thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living
water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing
to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that
living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob,
which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children,
and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her,
Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But
whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never
thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well
of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 4:21-24
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh,
when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem,
worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know
what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the
hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the
Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to
worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him
must worship him in spirit and in truth.
That which is born of the spirit is spirit. Meaning
someone who is born again is born of the spirit and receives spirit.
Jesus spoke to the woman at the well about living water. What was
the living water? The context tells us. Jesus was talking to the
woman about receiving holy spirit, which is made crystal clear by
his admonition that the true worshippers would worship God in spirit
and in truth. So from these passages, I think the concept that being
born again includes receiving holy spirit is true and valid.
Whether we understand it as a ‘baby' holy spirit or a
fully grown inner man is another matter. But I think the Word is
clear that each individual who is born from above receives holy
spirit from God. That is the earnest of our inheritance, that which
makes us Sons of God and enables us to walk by the spirit.
Romans 8:8 & 9
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be
that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the
Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Peace
Jerry |
Sunlight8
Likes the eggs Scrambled and runny
(1/25/01 11:12:47 am)
|
Re: PFAL
REVIEW
Jerry
I was just re-reading the I Peter section in light of
your post, I think your assessment is the correct one. The sower and
the seed is a nice tie in. The section is a lot less confusing that
way.
Personally, I took the 800 lb gorilla to mean way think.
I think the Bible is very clear about born again and
spirit.
Deb |
JBarrax
Only likes sourdough
(1/25/01 3:15:55 pm)
|
Re:
gorilla
Oh. THAT 800 lb gorilla. now I get it. Yes, Waybrain is a
pernicious and debilitating condition... :-)
Jerry
|
Sunlight8
Likes the eggs Scrambled and runny
(1/25/01 4:17:47 pm)
|
Re: PFAL
Review
Yes, it is a most evil animal. Smaller than an elephant, which is
some comfort....not near enough. All the things you said and an
ostentatious attempt to be beneficent that is in reality an
insidious preponderance that obliques any sense of reason. Almost
iconoclastic.
"All life is spirit, but not all spirit is
eternal life spirit."
Question: where does the Bible document
that there is such a thing as eternal life spirit?
I've been
through every usage of spirit many times, I don't find it used that
way. I don't find that phrase, and I don't find that
meaning.
As far as I am concerned for my own understanding,
this is a most pertinent question and real necessary to properly
understand what is meant by born again in terms of details, it also
affects our understanding of life after death.
Deb |
Sunlight8
Likes the eggs Scrambled and runny
(1/25/01 6:00:09 pm)
|
Re: PFAL
REVIEW
The 800 lb. gorilla is a perfidious debacle peripatetic on the
unsuspecting that is not the panacea it purports to be, but a
habiliment of fallaciousness. It caused a pejoration of conditions
past and present, and is essentially a mental lesion. It is in my
opinion, odious and necessary to obviate. Which, by Gawd, is the
purpose of this thread.
Yes, I am bored…and somewhat
brain-dead.
Deb
|
evanpyle
Most Likely to Post in ME ME ME
(1/25/01 6:12:16 pm)
|
Re: PFAL
REVIEW
Wow, Deb
Actually, the 800 lb gorilla I was thinking of, but
failed to actually refer to, was wierwille's capital HS disctinction
from 'gift of lowercase' and the whole 'God who is HS can only give
what He is, hs', and so on...
I know that is getting ahead of
ourselves in PFAL but it sure has bearing on the new birth.
I
very much believe that the Holy Spirit is received with the new
birth. I now believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a
distinct event, though, with the possibility of being simultaneous.
But again, that's running ahead, isn't it?
|
JBarrax
Only likes sourdough
(1/25/01 6:45:33 pm)
|
Re: Running
Ahead
You just SLOW DOWN there mister. We'll have none of
that!
:-)
Jerry |
Sunlight8
Likes the eggs Scrambled and runny
(1/25/01 6:59:03 pm)
|
Re: PFAL
Review
Gee, Evan. Here I was having so much fun with it, but thanks for
clarifying.
Deb |
Steve
Lortz
Had Fries with Gravy last
night
(1/25/01 8:45:49
pm)
|
Evan's comments
on the "new birth"
Evan- In your post of 1/25/01, 5:12:16 pm, you wrote, "I very much
believe that the Holy Spirit is received with the new birth. I now
believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a distinct event
though, with the possibility of being simultaneous."
We
should have noticed and remarked by now, in this review of PFAL,
that one of VPW's tactics when he wanted to put over an idea for
which there was no biblical support, was to use terminology that
doesn't appear in the Bible. That way, no one can find verses to
argue against him, since the terms don't appear in the
Bible.
The term "new birth" *never* occurs in the
Bible!?!
How can anyone confirm or refute your statement "I
very much believe the the Holy Spirit is received with the new
birth"?
I'm not saying this because I think the basic idea
you're trying to express is wrong. At my own state of research on
this topic, I just can't say. But as long as we use the 800 pound
gorilla's language, the 800 pound gorilla is still setting the
agenda.
As far as I'm concerned, you can run... just not with
scissors, okay? :-)
Love,
Steve |
JBarrax
Only likes sourdough
(1/25/01 8:56:57 pm)
|
Re: Language
Hi Steve.
You've pointed out that the term "new birth" is not
used in the Bible. This reminds me of VP's tirade in PFAL about
eternal security. "...Just never use that word around me! Makes me
grow ten feet tall or somethin'"
What if I said I believe
that we receive holy spirit when we are born again. Could you agree
with that?
Just curious...
Jerry |
Steve
Lortz
Had Fries with Gravy last
night
(1/25/01 11:23:25
pm)
|
When "born
again"?
Jerry - You ask, "What if I said I believe that we receive holy
spirit when we are born again? Could you agree with
that?"
Good question, Jerry. If we look at the clustering of
"born..." phrases, we find that eleven of the thirteen occur in the
writings of John, split about evenly between his gospel and his
epistles. In the gospel, they appear to refer to something in the
future. In John's epistles, they refer to something already
accomplished. The only thing I see in the Word to account for this
is the fact that John's addressees have already received the gift of
holy spirit by the time John was writing his epistle. Especially
since John specifically connects his idea to being born "of the
spirit".
Somewhere along the line, we were taught that there
are four different gospels because each one emphasizes a different
aspect of Jesus' ministry. Matthew showed Jesus as King, Mark showed
Jesus as servant, Luke showed Jesus as son of man, and John showed
Jesus as son of God. I still believe there is some truth to
this.
I'm inclined to think that John uses his "born..."
phrases because they are connected somehow with his "son of God"
Christology. It seems to me to be connected through I John
3:1&2,
1 "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath
bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God:
therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him
not.
2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not
yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear,
we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he
is."
Wierwille wrote that the "new birth" is the crux of
Christianity. That doesn't square with other things he
taught.
If Christianity began on the day of Pentecost, and
that was also the beginning of "the great mystery", then we
shouldn't
be able to find anything about the "new birth", in the gospels, and
we would expect Paul to be writing about the "new birth" all over
the place. But when we crack open our concordances, we find the
reverse to be the case. About half the uses of "born..." phrases are
in the gospels, or more accurately, one gospel, the gospel of
John.
None of the "born..." phrases occur in Paul, with the
exception of Galatians 4:21-29. But the grammatical structure of the
phrases appears to differ from John's (I haven't studied them out
far enough to say if that's important), and the person Paul gives as
an example of a person "born after the spirit" is
*Isaac*!
You ask if I could agree with the statement, "...I
believe that we receive holy spirit when we are born again." I would
be more inclined to agree with "...I believe we are born again when
we receive holy spirit."
It may seem like a subtle
difference, but I think it's worth noting. Which thing is literal,
and which metaphorical; receiving holy spirit, or being born again?
I'm inclined to see "receiving holy spirit" as more
literal.
Love,
Steve
|
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