| Author | Comment | JBarrax
(7/20/00 10:31:08 pm)
| fear & faith stuff
Litwin, Outin88, OC
Thanks for the moral support. This is (for me) a rather upsetting process. As George said, I had much of my self-esteem invested in the accuracy of PFAL. I 'd studied it, memorized much of it and knew
aaallll the answers. So it's difficult to admit that I was duped. Yes, there is truth there, but there is truth in what Billy Graham, Jesse Jackson, Rush Limbaugh, and the Pope say too. As Wayfers were fond of saying you can find truth on the heels of the devil.
REV2, thanks for not answering my question. You know, the one about Noah walking by his five senses. Did he or didn't he? Only his hairdresser knows for sure. According to VP he did. According to Hebrews 11:7 he didn't.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things NOT SEEN AS YET, moved with fear, (oops, there's that darned word again; just ignore it) prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. (emphasis and snide remarks added)
Furthermore, about fear, Dr. Wierwille teaches that fear is a law. "This happens to us because it is a law." If it's a law, it HAS to happen. Therefore, God cannot possibly intervene and prevent us from getting the results of our fear. I think VP said that if you convince yourself that this time next year, you're going to be dead, God would have to change all the laws of the universe to not
accommodate you. "You're going to be dead." This is contradicted by Hagar's experience in the dessert and the other examples I posted earlier.
speaking of errors concerning fear, VP said near the end of session one, no one ever gets rid of his fear until he gets born again of God's spirit and filled with the power of the holy spirit. Yet Psalms 34:4 WHICH VP ALSO QUOTED IN THE SAME SESSION says " I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears." So was King David born again 500 years before Christ came? Does anyone else see this as an inherent
contradiction?
Why didn't I see this 18 years ago?
Peace
Jerry
PS. The word "fear" in Hebrews 11:7 is the same word (eulabeomai) used in Acts 23:10
"And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle."
| rev2
(7/20/00 10:39:34 pm)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
Here is a study of faith and fear
home.flash.net/~jwr2/trust.htm
| JBarrax
(7/20/00 11:11:25 pm)
| fear shmear
Hi Rev2. Thanks again for not answering my question. I checked out your link to Jeff Rath's article and found the following statement.
"How did the residents of Jericho believe not? They were terrified and afraid of the one true God instead of believing and trusting Him."
This sounds like a really insightful statement until you compare it with the way the word fear is used in the Old Testament. Here are just three examples from the Bible that contradict what Rath says.
Genesis 31:42 Except the God of my father, the God of Abraham, and the fear of Isaac, had been with me, surely thou hadst sent me away now empty. God hath seen mine affliction and the labour of my hands, and rebuked thee yesternight.
31:53 The God of Abraham, and the God of Nahor, the God of their father, judge betwixt us. And Jacob sware by the fear of his father Isaac.
Exodus 1:21 And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.
According to Rev. Rath, fearing God is what defeated the people of Jericho. According to God's Word, the midwives' fear lead to the deliverance of many of God's people and God liked it so much he built them houses. This is another example of how VP's doctrine looks good if you only look at certain verses and then interpret them in a narrow way. If you look at all the Word and just shut up and read it, VP's teachings don't look so good.
Also in Rev Rath's article, he says it was the believing of Israel coupled with the fear of Jericho that made the walls of
Jericho fall. And all this time I though it was GOD that did that. Silly me.
By the way, Rev2, not to be a pain in the butt, but you still haven't answered my question. I could go on a rant about how TWI ministers were great at sidestepping direct questions by suggesting you go read this or study that, but I'll spare you.
Do you believe Noah walked by his senses as VP taught? What of Hebrews 11:7?
Jerry
| EarlyOut
(7/21/00 12:17:23 am)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
Jerry,
I'm really glad you brought this up. I wish I had spent more time thinking about the basics of the PFAL class while I was in. I was only 20 years old when I first took PFAL, and the reason I didn't examine the teachings in greater detail is simply that I was young and not very experienced in the ways of the world.
Well, maybe that's a good explanation, but I'll always regret that I didn't study more and ask more questions... and press for answers. I do remember that my first twig leaders showed by their tone of voice that they didn't really care for certain types of questions.
I've been thinking about what seems to be *the* foundational verse of PFAL, John 10:10.
"The thief cometh not, but for to steal and to kill and to destroy. I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."
VPW construed the abundant life to consist of having lots of material things. Covertly rather than overtly, perhaps, but that's what I took him to mean, and many of my friends took it that way also. We had an overemphasis on financial and material abundance because of this error.
Rev2,
Thanks for the links you've posted.
| Outin88
(7/21/00 4:33:43 am)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
EarlyOut said;
"I've been thinking about what seems to be *the* foundational verse of PFAL, John 10:10.
"The thief cometh not, but for to steal and to kill and to destroy. I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."
VPW construed the abundant life to consist of having lots of material things. Covertly rather than overtly, perhaps, but that's what I took him to mean, and many of my friends took it that way also. We had an overemphasis on financial and material abundance because of this error."
IMHO the "abundant life" Jesus came to bring was eternal life, not a life where Christians have much material possessions etc.
One only has to read Acts and the Epistles to see that the kind of life Paul and others had, beaten left for dead, hungry, whipped, jailed etc. (II Corinthians 11:24-27).
Where is this "Abundant Life"? Where is Paul's "Believing"?
Paul must have a lot of fear in his life?
If I said I have an abundance of books, you would probably
understand I have a lot of books, right?
So did Jesus come to give us this material life here and now? No, he came that we might have a lot of life, an abundance of life or eternal life!
I think that perhaps after the gathering together when were with with the Lord, then we may have abundance of material things, lots of food, perfect health etc.
| pjroberge
(7/26/00 9:12:08 am)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
An interesting point you might want to consider that VPW had wrong was that believers were not born again in the old testament. They looked forward to Christ coming, we look back.
They operated 7 gifts of the spirit however, where Jesus Christ and believers after the day of
Pentecost operated nine gifts.
| John the B
(7/21/00 1:13:23 pm)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
Jerry B
Please try to overlook my past smugness toward you. I have a very different mind-set about godliness since having left TWI, and I am of the habit of speaking it whenever the opportunity presents itself.
If YOU PLAN to be objective, then I PLAN to listen.
God bless
John
| libertylad
(7/21/00 3:48:56 pm)
| PFAL Review
pjroberge,
I think you are wrong in your remembrance of what VPW taught. He never taught that O.T. believers were born again, but rather, had spirit upon (indicating it was not seed, permanent, but could be taken away dependant on the walk of the person it was upon, i.e. Saul).
He also taught there were seven manifestations and that Jesus manifested seven of those, the other two being tongues, and interpretation of tongues with prophesy.
The context of what the O.T. believers looked forward to in regards to Christ was the 1st hope, that of the coming of the messiah. For us that hope was fulfilled. Now we wait for the hope of his return. That's to the best of my understanding.
Do you disagree that what we call manifestations of the spirit are indeed that? I saw you referred to them as "gifts".
| evanpyle
(7/21/00 4:44:20 pm)
| Re: PFAL Review
libertylad, I think you misread proberge's post.
He was contrasting what vp taught (the dispensationalist hokum of 'you can't be born again before Pentecost') with what he believes (and I believe the Bible teaches), that the plan of salvation has remained the same through all ages: righteousness through faith in Christ alone. That is the ONLY bible means of salvation.
If you contend that in the ot, people were saved by works (as vp contended in pfal), then you MUST contend that absolutely noone outside of the so-called, mis-called grace "administration" will be saved. Why? "There is none righteous, NO NOT ONE", says the Bible. OOps, another gaping hole in vp's
pfal "theology".
Gifts? Yep they're gifts. Sorry, what vp said isn't true, and it didn't "remake the theological world" as vp said another theologian told him. But that's ok, you can call them manifestations (though that is semantically incorrect). I'll call them gifts. The big question is: do you walk in their use unto glorifying God?
| LeroysKat
(7/21/00 4:55:39 pm)
| Re: PFAL Review
I personally believe that God gave gifts unto men. What you see when they are operated are manifestations of the gifts. 9? I believe there are many spiritual gifts and giftings. I just believe 9 needed to be defined in the reproof epistle known as I Corinthians. You can not make doctrine in Corinthians. You can only clarify it.
As far as the so-called doctrine of devils known as the "law of believing". I think "doing it afraid" is walking in faith. Believing is of the mind. I believe psychic surgeons have believing. But faith comes from the spirit engendered by allowing ourselves to be led of the Spirit.
My opinion but at this time I believe it is correct.
Kat
| JBarrax
(7/21/00 11:58:43 pm)
| John 10:10
I vote for overt. VP made a statement that many times the unbelievers in the community would manifest more of an abundant life than the people in the Church. How else can that be interpreted? It's obvious he's talking about material abundance. Health and wealth. Outin88 is right, Paul was not always healthy and almost never wealthy. What a 'spiritual hitchhiker' he must have been eh?
The fascinating thing for me looking at John 10:10 this time around is the hypocrisy of how it's presented in PFAL. Read the context. [copied at the bottom of this post for those who care to read it] Jesus is talking primarily about his sheep and how He is the good shepherd. All that came before were thieves and robbers. Then he speaks of the hireling who careth not for the sheep because he's just a hireling. The context of the passage is not material abundance, but the contrast between Jesus Christ the Good Shepherd and the two alternatives:
1) enemies of the Lord's people who want to plunder them. (thieves & robbers)
2) worthless "ministers" who leave the Lord's people to be ravaged by enemies because of their self-interest. (hirelings)
Not only does VP's presentation wrench the verse out of its context, which he later admonishes us never to do, but I can't help but find it ironic that this is done by a man whose self-interest became the downfall of his life's work (if the multitude of witnesses here at WayDale are to be believed). So PFAL begins with a hireling reading from a passage about hirelings and twisting it to his agenda.
By the way, how is it that a minister could start a Bible class with *this* passage and put the emphasis on gettin' abundance rather than on the Good Shepherd who is referred to at least 7 times in the immediate context? That was, I'd say, a pretty good indicator of things to come. "You tell me what you think of Jesus Christ and I'll tell you how far you'll go spiritually." Apparently VP thought he was barely important enough to mention.
Okay, I'll be quiet now.
Peace y'all
Jerry
John 10:1-16
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
| LeroysKat
(7/22/00 4:33:28 am)
| Re: John 10:10
I would also like to say that B=R doctrine has a name in mainstream christianity. It is a doctrine called "Word of Faith". It is taught by Kenneth Copeland Ministries.
| Moses848
(7/22/00 7:06:23 am)
| Jerry
Hi Jerry,
It is good to see you here. I don't know much about PFAL anymore, I chicked in the bin so to speak--and I don't want to take up a bunch of room here on your thread but I wanted to say to you ---God Bless.
PFAL is no longer my foundation for anything---although it used to be. That place --- that building stone--- is reserved for Jesus Christ.
PFAL IMO is one man's rendition of the bible---and in truth a very skewed one. But, not so blatant to the new or ungrounded Christian.
God is in the paradox not in the mathematical exactness and it DOES take the Holy spirit to enlighten us as we seek with humbleness, and a willingness to move beyond our own "knowledge."
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of what??? Wow---you keep seeking Jerry---but don't always look for the logic--it is at times beyond our understanding--yet He knows how to show us so we understand.
You have embarked on a wonderful journey here---I hope there is joy in process.
Jesus Christ------humble heart before the Lord----Holy Spirit revealing the truth---go for it!!!!
| evanpyle
(7/22/00 7:18:54 am)
| Re: John 10:10
Jerry, I consider that very keen insight on John 10. I had not gone with the context before. Now that you have, it suddenly snaps into focus for me.
Thanks
| DarrellB
(7/22/00 8:37:24 am)
| PFAL, Context and John "10:10"
Great posts by all, great thread of discussion!
Jerry, I am so glad you brought up the "context" thing. That approach is what has guided my discoveries of the last fifteen years. These discoveries have shown me that most if not all of the basic tenets of pfal are based on "verses" wrenched out of their context.
Another example like John 10:10, is the way people grappled with sin and it's mastery over them at times.
Years ago, while in the way when people discussed the difficulty we encounter when attempting to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh, many "learned" believers would refer to the "Romans 7" experience.
"Romans 7" (to me at that time and seemingly others struggling with the same experiences) represented specific truth about the futility of trying "win" the battle between "the two natures".
My Point #1: There is no such thing as "Romans 7".
There is no such thing as "John 10:10"
Romans is a letter, Neither it's writer or author divided it into 16 chapters.
(Dividing a living thing usually kills it. If "the word" is living, and we chop it up to prove what we want, we just removed the life that was previously contained in it)
My Point #2: All teachings, doctrines, soundbytes, buzzwords, elitest lingo slang that are based upon using artificial divisions of the scriptures will be greatly devoid of the power and life that God embedded into the experiences and understanding of the very people that God inspired to pen the words.
---------
P.S. Not only did I reject the common perception of "Romans 7", I went on to discover that never does the bible say the believer has "two natures".
I went on and discovered more about Romans as a "whole" or complete thing in itself, but still a part of a greater truth in the bible.
The greater truth is about the Lordship of Jesus.
The Lordship of Jesus that replaces the authority that our previous "owner", "lord", "master" had over us.
The Lordship of Jesus that gets ignored and therefore people experience a life where sin still lords itself over people who have supposedly confessed Jesus as Lord.
God bless you all,
Darrell Bailey
| ppolizotto
(7/22/00 8:56:00 am)
| Re: PFAL, Context and John "10:10"
What I received from John 10:10 and what I believe VPW was trying to convey was that Jesus came so that believers could have an abundant life; life in all of its manifestations. And as VPW prodded along, he taught us keys in the bible on how that abundant life is attained.
At the end of the class, the student wasn't given pep talks on how to acquire more material possessions and how to make more money. Rather, the student was taught from the Word how to manifest the gift of holy spirit...
This is priceless stuff to some of us who are walking in darkness...
Phil P. | EarlyOut
(7/22/00 10:33:26 am)
| Re: PFAL, Context and John "10:10"
I've been studying the context surrounding John 10:10 for the last 3 days, but still hadn't noticed some of the points that Jerry mentioned. I am humbled by how much I still have to learn.
One thing I learned from VPW that I have absolutely ditched and will not tell myself again, is that "I know that I know that I know" much of anything. That just closes the door to learning and growing.
It seems to me that the abundance of life that Jesus talks about stands in contrast to death. I don't see how I can read that to mean "having lots of money and lots of stuff in your earthly life".
And I'm not aware of anyplace in the Bible that promises material abundance to those who believe in and worship the true God. If you look at the beginning sections in each of Paul's epistles, you see that what he wishes for the saints is spiritual knowledge and understanding. Apparently that's more important than the material things.
| JBarrax
(7/22/00 10:53:21 am)
| Moses, Darrel, Evan et al
Moses, thanks much for your words of encouragement. As I said before, this is a heart wrenching process. The support and kindness of WayDalers like you and Evan is helpful, especially since we've not agreed on much in the past.
Hi Darrel, good to hear from you again. I agree wholeheartedly with your comments on context and Romans 7. The most fruitful times of my life in TWI were when I carried a mindset of working for Jesus Christ my Master. Somehow, that mindset was greatly diminished during my W.O.W. year (which was a pretty good one) and things began to slide downhill. Recently, I've been reminded of that lordship by Ephesians 5-oops sorry, there I go. The many admonitions to walk "in the Lord" which I'd ignored for years are giving me a little more resilience in that battle.
Phil, concerning the abundant life VP presented in PFAL, I still say he presented it as material abundance. I think perhaps he thought he was being a fisher of men by offering what he thought everyone wanted; material abundance. True, we ended the class by speaking in tongues, and that is a great blessing, but after we became "grads", the emphasis for many of us turned back to acquiring material abundance. We were told to "believe for" jobs, houses, cars, etc.
As Linda Z has said often there's a lot of diversity in what we experienced in TWI, so I won't say we were all herded toward carnality, but I think that's true for most of us. But the point of this thread is to investigate how much bs was interwoven with the truths we were taught, so we can FINALLY
separate truth from error.
Peace
Jerry
| BobbiAnne
(7/22/00 11:32:46 am)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
WOW......what a great thread....and I even took the time to read ALL the post's.......there is much truth written here and I applaud all those that are "seeking" cause you will "find it"......
Reading what is written here has brought up nasty, painfull memories of my life during and after twi.....the "law" of believeing is a biggie.....I have to wonder about the many, many people that have taken pfal that are still living in the doctrine of "the law of believing".....cause with it comes a huge amount of condemnation, guilt and shame......
A very dear friend of mine had gone thru many health related problems.....(she and I are both ex-twi).....We were discussing her health problems and I began to tell her how we need to love ourselves enough to take care of ourselves....ie, eating properly, exercise etc.....and finally I realized (or God showed me) that somehow she was still thinking with "waybrain" and she has been living with the comdemnation that all these problems were directly related to her own "believing"......how ludicrous!...she broke down and cried....she had secretly been carrying this "wrong teaching" of believing and living a life of condemnation......
The thought that we can "believe" for things puts us in the driver seat.....it makes us our "own god".....how can we believe for something if it is not God's will?......it totally takes God out of the picture.....it is a direct conflict with OUR WILL and GOD'S WILL.......and if we read the "Lord's Prayer" we will see that we are to ask for "God's will be done"......
And of course when we think we can "will something into being by our believing" it only sets us up for failure, pain, condemnation and guilt".....there is a difference between an opptimistic attitude and a pessimistic.....the 2 don't equal "believing"......
The pain and suffering this wrong doctrine has caused people is immeasurable....it set me up for many, many years of a life filled with guilt and condemnation....As I seeked MY LORD JESUS, HE showed me a different WAY.....it is not about the way international......it is about JESUS being the WAY......
scuse me...I will now get off of my soapbox....as ya'll know I don't post much, but when I read something that get's my dander up....I just can't keep quite....love to all....
Bobbi
p.s. A point I meant to make is the fact about "fear"....vp said "fear is the negative of believing"...sand in the machinery of life......this is sooo untrue....fear is an "emotion" without "fear" of certain things we would all walk out and do some stupid erroneous things.....fear is not "all" bad...it is a God given clue to be carefull and not walk out in the middle of a busy intersection just to see if we won't get hit by a mac truck.....twi only taught "absolutes".....nothing in the gray area....always either "black or white"....I don't believe this is a Godly thing....unlearning this doctrine helped me deal with the reality of what fear actually is and the waybrain idea of it.......ooopps...got back on my soapbox, didn't I.....
| Orange Cat
(7/22/00 11:45:59 am)
| Re: PFAL REVIEW
The correct and proper reading of John10:10 literally according to usage in light of present truth is...
The Adversary comes to play havoc with your schedule but I have come that they may be micromanaged by their corps overseers and that more than abundantly.
Orange Cat
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